Looks like I was right about Suh so far

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, in Detroit he was a disruptive force in the middle.  He can sack the QB and tackle runners behind the LOS. 

But when you take all the positive he did and subtract things like, giving the the opposing team a first down and 15 yards for penalties his overall effectiveness drops to merely being an average player.

So how many personal foul penalties are you saying that Suh collected in his 5 years with DET?  Must be an awful lot to drop him down to "average."

[Tenshot13]

All of Suh's penalties with Detroit, and only 6 personal fouls in his career.  Yup, definitely drops him down to "average" 

2010   2010-09-19      @      1      2   5   PHI 25   0   0   Encroachment   4   
2010   2010-09-26            2      1   10   MIN 46   7   7   Roughing the Passer   15   
2010   2010-10-17            2      2   20   NYG 19   7   7   Illegal Use of Hands   5   
2010   2010-11-07      @      5      3   6   DET 12   23   20   Leverage      D
2010   2010-11-14            1      1   10   DET 46   0   0   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2010   2010-11-21            1      1   10   DAL 45   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2010   2010-11-21            4      2   13   DET 13   21   19   Horse Collar Tackle   6   
2010   2010-11-25      @      4               45   24   Unnecessary Roughness   15   
2010   2010-12-05      @      4      1   10   DET 22   17   20   Unnecessary Roughness   7   
2010   2010-12-12      @      1      2   3   GNB 27   0   0   Illegal Block Above the   10   
2010   2010-12-26            4      2   6   MIA 12   27   34   Face Mask (15 Yards)   15   
2011   2011-09-11            2      3   2   DET 26   10   20   Unsportsmanlike Conduct   13   
2011   2011-10-02            3      3   3   DAL 39   27   17   Roughing the Passer   15   
2011   2011-10-10      @      1      1   10   CHI 34   0   0   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2011   2011-10-23      @      1      1   10   ATL 23   0   3   Face Mask (15 Yards)   15   
2011   2011-11-20      @      3      1   10   CAR 20   27   21   Illegal Use of Hands   5   
2011   2011-11-24      @      3      3   3   DET 3   7   0   Disqualification   2   
2011   2011-12-18            3      2   1   RAI 17   17   14   Defensive Offside   5   
2011   2012-01-01            4      3   3   GNB 43   38   41   Encroachment   5   
2012   2012-09-16            2      1   10   DET 44   14   6   Encroachment   5   
2012   2012-12-09            3      3   6   GNB 41   10   14   Roughing the Passer   15   
2012   2012-12-22      @      1      2   11   ATL 46   0   0   Encroachment   5   
2013   2013-09-08      @      2      2   1   MIN 29   7   6   Low Block   15   
2013   2013-10-06            1      3   7   GNB 34   0   0   Tripping   10   
2013   2013-10-13            3      2   10   CLE 20   17   14   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2013   2013-10-13            2      1   4   DET 4   7   7   Defensive Offside   2   
2013   2013-10-27      @      2      3   7   DET 40   0   7   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2013   2013-12-08            4      2   10   DET 40   12   14   Defensive Holding   1   
2013   2013-12-29            2      3   6   MIN 20   7   0   Encroachment   5   
2014   2014-09-14            2      1   10   CAR 39   3   0   Illegal Use of Hands      D
2014   2014-09-28            2      1   10   NYJ 7   3   10   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-10-19      @      1      1   10   NOR 17   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-11-09      @      2      3   3   DET 24   0   10   Face Mask (15 Yards)   10   
2014   2014-11-23            2      1   6   DET 6   7   6   Encroachment   3   
2014   2014-12-07      @      2      2   13   TAM 33   3   17   Roughing the Passer   9   
2014   2014-12-14      @      1      1   10   MIN 10   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-12-28            4      2   10   DET 30   21   14   Defensive Offside   5   
35 Accepted Penalties   262   

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Not sure how you came up with only 6, Roughing the Passer,  Illegal Use of Hands, Unnecessary Roughness, Face Mask are all bonehead plays. 

35 accepted penalties on 36 sacks. So one more play where he had the best outcome than the worst. 

[Tenshot13]

Not sure how you came up with only 6, Roughing the Passer,  Illegal Use of Hands, Unnecessary Roughness, Face Mask are all bonehead plays. 

35 accepted penalties on 36 sacks. So one more play where he had the best outcome than the worst. 

Because I just skimmed it...fine I see 10 instead of 6 then...you're acting like he has a personal foul multiple times a game which cancels out his great play.  It doesn't, they don't happen frequently enough.

[Phishfan]

Thanks Tenshot. Can you give a rundown on the numbers on each line item? There is a group of three numbers, team name, three more numbers, what the penalty was, and a number. Looks like the very last number is the number of yards penalized.

What are the others?

[Tenshot13]

Not sure how you came up with only 6, Roughing the Passer,  Illegal Use of Hands, Unnecessary Roughness, Face Mask are all bonehead plays. 

35 accepted penalties on 36 sacks. So one more play where he had the best outcome than the worst. 

So by your logic, Vince Wilfork is the worst player in the NFL.  33 accepted penalties to 16 career sacks.  So 17 more plays where he had the WORST outcome than the BEST.

You can't judge a DT on sacks and you know this, so I don't know why you're using it as a base for your ludicrous argument.

[Tenshot13]

Thanks Tenshot. Can you give a rundown on the numbers on each line item? There is a group of three numbers, team name, three more numbers, what the penalty was, and a number. Looks like the very last number is the number of yards penalized.

What are the others?

Pro-Football-Reference.com doesn't have headers on their columns.

Here's a link to Vince Wilfork's career penalties, since it was the last one I looked up.  You might be able to judge from that.


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilfVi20/penalties/

[Dave Gray]

It doesn't make sense to judge Suh's position with sacks.  It's not a position that normally gets sacks.

[dolphins4life]

The problem is if you tie that much money up in him, you can't use it to get good enough players to complement him.

[Phishfan]

Pro-Football-Reference.com doesn't have headers on their columns.

Here's a link to Vince Wilfork's career penalties, since it was the last one I looked up.  You might be able to judge from that.


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilfVi20/penalties/

Thanks again. My best guess then is

the Quarter (I assume the 5 is for overtime)
down and distance
ball position (after the team name)
and the score at the time

[masterfins]

The problem is if you tie that much money up in him, you can't use it to get good enough players to complement him.

Wrong.  For years Miami has been signing average complimentary players; at some point you need to step up and sign some studs to lead the team.  Miami chose Suh for the defense.  I certainly wasn't a fan of his given the couple incidents he had, but you can't judge his signing as a bust after only three games.

[MikeO]

Suh isn't the problem. Suh is setting the table the linebackers are doing nothing behind him. Suh can move the guys out of the way if the linebackers don't make plays....can't blame Suh.

Sheppard is worthless as as MLB

[MikeO]

NFL Network had a brilliant piece on Suh and the Fins defense. Through 3 games Suh is doing exactly what they paid him to do. Eatting up Double and Triple teams and in many circumstances winning vs the double teams. They had endless examples and video proof. The point they raised is Wake and Vernon are doing absolutely nothing at all this year through 3 games when they should be dominating with the way Suh is playing and what he is doing. And they showed video of Wake/Vernon getting abused by marginal plaeyrs

[Phishfan]

NFL Network had a brilliant piece on Suh and the Fins defense. Through 3 games Suh is doing exactly what they paid him to do. Eatting up Double and Triple teams and in many circumstances winning vs the double teams. They had endless examples and video proof. The point they raised is Wake and Vernon are doing absolutely nothing at all this year through 3 games when they should be dominating with the way Suh is playing and what he is doing. And they showed video of Wake/Vernon getting abused by marginal plaeyrs

I wish I had seen that. I'm curious how many examples there were and from what games. I admit the last game I was not watching him closely because I had given up because the team had as well but I distinctly remember watching him being taken on by single blockers and the announcers pointing it out in the second game.

[CF DolFan]

There are many examples of him losing 1v1s and i even posted one. I agree the other guys haven't stepped up but Suh is not playing like Suh of the past either. Our whole defensive line has been a disappointment.