Proper Anthem Conduct

[pondwater]

To be honest, I'm really not sure where I sit on the issue.  Statistically, there isn't a case for racially targeted police brutality being a problem, I feel the media has a lot to do with blowing things like this out of proportion.  In a country with 325.7 million people, 703 people (out of that, 278 white, 129 black) have been shot and killed by police this year, and 987 last year.  (source:  Washington Post-left bias...https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7e292200f2a5)

That is not even close to statistically significant for any race.  On the other hand, I know statistics can be skewed to fit a narrative, and sometimes things are bigger than statistics.

It's the same with the evil AR15 or the made up term "assault weapon". Go look at all the killings for any given year and you will find that AR15's/assault weapons make up very small statistical percentage. Feelings over facts.

[MaineDolFan]

I don't care if he wrote a 1000 word essay perfectly explaining his stance.  Like it or not, this is a highly patriotic country, and when he chose to kneel during the national anthem, it was a big middle finger to the people who hold that dear.  If I go up to you and tell you, "Go fuck yourself" then say you must listen and support me for some sort of injustice or your a racist, you aren't going to listen are you?  So how is that not distorted?

I'm going to point out this post because of the content.  "this is a highly patriotic country"  Please remember this statement.

Anyone around these parts know a few things about me.  I'm a (proud) Veteran.  I've been deployed (more than once). I have family members who were lost in conflicts.  My biological father served in 'Nam, my adoptive father was in the South Pacific in WWII, my Grandfather was in Europe and Africa in WWII.  So, really, I've got the "Veteran" and "family of Veteran" thing covered here. 

Freedom is *defined* as:

Definition of freedom
1 : the quality or state of being free: such as
a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence
c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous ·freedom from care
d : unrestricted use ·gave him the freedom of their home
e : ease, facility ·spoke the language with freedom
f : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken ·answered with freedom
g : improper familiarity
h : boldness of conception or execution
2 a : a political right
b : franchise, privilege

I think a lot of people really need to read and understand the definition of this.  Freedom is not being patriotic.  It is certainly not being a nationalist which, really, is what a lot of folks are bordering. 

When I enlisted, and my family before me, we took an oath.  It's pretty simple:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I did not serve, nor did my family members, so freedom would be defined as a nation in lockstep and everyone marching in the same direction.  I can name a few nations which do operate like this. 

Protesting, even against the flag or the anthem, is one of THE most American things a person can do when they disagree with things happening within this nation.  How does anyone think any change has ever happened in this nation?  Magic?

This does not mean everyone needs to be in agreement.  But statements, such as this, as basically saying people who kneel shouldn't be heard at all.  Because "this is a highly patriotic country."  If you're NOT listening, even if you don't agree, well...you're not doing your job as a "Patriot."

[Phishfan]

It's not even an anthem thing for me. I don't tune into a football game to see people's political views. Hell, I don't care about any of their views about life. I'm there for ONE REASON, to watch football. They need to do that shit on their own time and with their own money and stop shoving it in people's faces who are there for ONE REASON.

Kind of reminds me of those fruity kids wearing white shirts and black ties that knock on my door every so often trying to sell me on Jesus. Fuck you, fuck your Jesus, get out of here kid I have better shit to do. If I want god, I'll go to church. Slam.

Or maybe those telemarketers that call my personal phone and try to sell me an extended warranty. Fuck you, fuck your warranty, if I want a warranty I'll go buy one. Click.

So, when I'm watching my sport of choice. Pick up the ball and run around and entertain me. Otherwise, fuck you, fuck your protest.

Unless I am mistaken, you didn't tune into the game and see anything other than football. You saw it during all the bullshit talking head shows. People in the stadium should not have seen it either unless they were looking specifically for it and I would ask those that feel so patriotic about the flag and anthem why they are not disrespectful themselves since they were not paying attention to the flag.

This form of protest is one of the least obvious yet it is talked about the most by people who don't or shouldn't even be seeing it.

[Phishfan]

To be honest, I'm really not sure where I sit on the issue.  Statistically, there isn't a case for racially targeted police brutality being a problem, I feel the media has a lot to do with blowing things like this out of proportion.  In a country with 325.7 million people, 703 people (out of that, 278 white, 129 black) have been shot and killed by police this year, and 987 last year.  (source:  Washington Post-left bias...https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7e292200f2a5)

That is not even close to statistically significant for any race.  On the other hand, I know statistics can be skewed to fit a narrative, and sometimes things are bigger than statistics.

I'm glad you recognize stats are not a full story, I can rule out you having the alter identity of that analyst guy we had for a while, the issue I immediately take with the link at a glance is that scenario is not included. There is no account for the individual scenario, just numbers.

[Spider-Dan]

I realize in your race baited glasses everything from a white person comes from a racist position but I wouldn't care if he was protesting persecuted Christians.

This has nothing to do with the white devil or whatever nonsense.  If you don't agree with the reason behind the protest, of course you're not going to support it.  Black Lives Matter wasn't protesting during the anthem and the same people found plenty of reason to decry them.

It would be one thing if you agreed with the cause, but thought this was a bad way to express it.  But when you believe that protesting police brutality is itself an attack on law enforcement, there is no room for "acceptable" protests.

[pondwater]

Protesting, even against the flag or the anthem, is one of THE most American things a person can do when they disagree with things happening within this nation.  How does anyone think any change has ever happened in this nation?  Magic?

I agree. However, there is no constitutional right to protest at your place of employment. If they want to protest on their own time, have at it.

Unless I am mistaken, you didn't tune into the game and see anything other than football. You saw it during all the bullshit talking head shows. People in the stadium should not have seen it either unless they were looking specifically for it and I would ask those that feel so patriotic about the flag and anthem why they are not disrespectful themselves since they were not paying attention to the flag.

This form of protest is one of the least obvious yet it is talked about the most by people who don't or shouldn't even be seeing it.

No, not this year. However, they've shown it in the past, so the cat's out of the bag. Therefore, keeping with the topic of this thread. Which by the way, I didn't create. I entered this discussion and I gave my opinion.

Just because we can't see it this year because the networks don't want to show that shit, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And if that's the case you might as well delete this whole thread and never bring it up again. That's fine with me.

[Spider-Dan]

Statistically, there isn't a case for racially targeted police brutality being a problem, I feel the media has a lot to do with blowing things like this out of proportion.  In a country with 325.7 million people, 703 people (out of that, 278 white, 129 black) have been shot and killed by police this year, and 987 last year.

We don't (and shouldn't) make policy decisions based on percentages, in the way you are suggesting.  Over the last decade, the yearly average of people in America killed by Islamic extremists is in the low double digits (maybe even single digits), yet we spend hundreds of billions pet year on the War on Terror.

[Tenshot13]

I'm going to point out this post because of the content.  "this is a highly patriotic country"  Please remember this statement.

Anyone around these parts know a few things about me.  I'm a (proud) Veteran.  I've been deployed (more than once). I have family members who were lost in conflicts.  My biological father served in 'Nam, my adoptive father was in the South Pacific in WWII, my Grandfather was in Europe and Africa in WWII.  So, really, I've got the "Veteran" and "family of Veteran" thing covered here. 

Freedom is *defined* as:

Definition of freedom
1 : the quality or state of being free: such as
a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence
c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous ·freedom from care
d : unrestricted use ·gave him the freedom of their home
e : ease, facility ·spoke the language with freedom
f : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken ·answered with freedom
g : improper familiarity
h : boldness of conception or execution
2 a : a political right
b : franchise, privilege

I think a lot of people really need to read and understand the definition of this.  Freedom is not being patriotic.  It is certainly not being a nationalist which, really, is what a lot of folks are bordering. 

When I enlisted, and my family before me, we took an oath.  It's pretty simple:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I did not serve, nor did my family members, so freedom would be defined as a nation in lockstep and everyone marching in the same direction.  I can name a few nations which do operate like this. 

Protesting, even against the flag or the anthem, is one of THE most American things a person can do when they disagree with things happening within this nation.  How does anyone think any change has ever happened in this nation?  Magic?

This does not mean everyone needs to be in agreement.  But statements, such as this, as basically saying people who kneel shouldn't be heard at all.  Because "this is a highly patriotic country."  If you're NOT listening, even if you don't agree, well...you're not doing your job as a "Patriot."

I don't think I disagree with you.  On a micro level, I don't agree with Kaep's way of protesting.  On a Macro level, I agree the government should not impede him on protesting, which is very different than an employer.  I have always been very willing to hear all sides of any issue.  I play devil's advocate a lot, not just to do it, but to try and understand an issue at all levels.  So when I say something like "highly patriotic" I'm referring to the people finding offense with his kneeling.  You opened that up to "what exactly is being highly patriotic.  Is it bordering on nationalism?"  That is a great conversation to have, and one I didn't even think about until Dave said something about fetishism of patriotism (sorry Dave, I'm paraphrasing).  At first, I thought that was nonsense, but it got me thinking, "Why do we do what we do?  Why are we so passionate about it (pledge, anthem, etc.)?"  

Great, so we're having that conversation right now, and you brought up a ton of good points.  But lets put it in perspective with the issue.  Kaep kneels--->People get upset that it's not patriotic--->It's not about the anthem, it's about police shootings--->herp a derp don't disrespect mah flag--->discussion on what true patriotism is.  So there are three issues here.  (1)  Things usually don't go further than "It's not about the anthem, it's about police shootings" and "don't disrespect the anthem".  (2) The constant attacking on both sides of the issue that do nothing but cause more conflict, which leads to (3) the message being distorted.

[Tenshot13]

We don't (and shouldn't) make policy decisions based on percentages, in the way you are suggesting.  Over the last decade, the yearly average of people in America killed by Islamic extremists is in the low double digits (maybe even single digits), yet we spend hundreds of billions pet year on the War on Terror.

Which is why I have another part to my post you omitted that is in line with what you are saying.  Please don't partially quote me and distort my message.

That is not even close to statistically significant for any race.  On the other hand, I know statistics can be skewed to fit a narrative, and sometimes things are bigger than statistics.

Also, war on Terror might be a bad example.  That is a world problem, not a U.S.A. problem.

[pondwater]

Which is why I have another part to my post you omitted that is in line with what you are saying.  Please don't partially quote me and distort my message.

He does that on purpose to "WIN" an argument.

Also, war on Terror might be a bad example.  That is a world problem, not a U.S.A. problem.

He's being obtuse again. It's not even close to being the same. Terrorists killed 3000 people in a few hours on 9/11. Let me know when the police go out and kill 3000 blacks in a day, then we'll be on the same page...

[Spider-Dan]

I agree. However, there is no constitutional right to protest at your place of employment. If they want to protest on their own time, have at it.

So your concern about kneeling during the anthem is really that... owners are being taken advantage of by their employees?  The NFL could have chosen to write the CBS to require players to stand during the anthem (as the NBA has), but NFL owners had other priorities.  So why are you concerned over what is essentially a collective bargaining issue?

[pondwater]

So your concern about kneeling during the anthem is really that... owners are being taken advantage of by their employees?  The NFL could have chosen to write the CBS to require players to stand during the anthem (as the NBA has), but NFL owners had other priorities.  So why are you concerned over what is essentially a collective bargaining issue?

Why are you concerned with my concerns?

[MaineDolFan]

I don't think I disagree with you.  On a micro level, I don't agree with Kaep's way of protesting.  On a Macro level, I agree the government should not impede him on protesting, which is very different than an employer.  I have always been very willing to hear all sides of any issue.  I play devil's advocate a lot, not just to do it, but to try and understand an issue at all levels.  So when I say something like "highly patriotic" I'm referring to the people finding offense with his kneeling.  You opened that up to "what exactly is being highly patriotic.  Is it bordering on nationalism?"  That is a great conversation to have, and one I didn't even think about until Dave said something about fetishism of patriotism (sorry Dave, I'm paraphrasing).  At first, I thought that was nonsense, but it got me thinking, "Why do we do what we do?  Why are we so passionate about it (pledge, anthem, etc.)?"  

Great, so we're having that conversation right now, and you brought up a ton of good points.  But lets put it in perspective with the issue.  Kaep kneels--->People get upset that it's not patriotic--->It's not about the anthem, it's about police shootings--->herp a derp don't disrespect mah flag--->discussion on what true patriotism is.  So there are three issues here.  (1)  Things usually don't go further than "It's not about the anthem, it's about police shootings" and "don't disrespect the anthem".  (2) The constant attacking on both sides of the issue that do nothing but cause more conflict, which leads to (3) the message being distorted.

First, thanks for understanding I was using your post as an example (versus highlighting you).  I appreciate that.

The moment anyone brings the flag, anthem, pledge into any argument or "discussion," really, all other points are missed and lost.  Right?  If you don't stand, you're not "supporting the troops."  If you don't say the pledge you don't support the country and "everything people before you died for."

So, really, this gets twisted in so many ways it's almost not worth talking about (not with YOU, but the proverbial you, the general public) due to either their:
1: Inability to look beyond their own stance and belief;
2: Lack of knowledge in current and past history, and;
3: Refusal to understand, or even trying to comprehend "sea to shining sea" means vastly different things to vastly different people.

I'll take the constant "I came to a football game to see a football game, not your protest" (1) and "yes, you can protest, but not at work" (2) comments.  When all else fails, it always comes back to one of the two.  Right?

1:  An NFL game is, what?  3:00 hours in length?  The national anthem (if you're even in your seat for it and not in the beer or merch line) is maybe 2:00 minutes.  If Kenny Stills (example) kneels, due to his beliefs, during this 2:00 minutes - this impacted your ability to watch the football game, how?
1a:  Take a player out of this and say four people sitting next to you knelt during the anthem.  Knelt, quiet, head bowed, respectful, stood when it was over.  Same question.

2:  Professional sports, as much as you want this to be "your work" - isn't. Otherwise you'd have millions of people following you on Twitter and IG and you'd sign a new contract ever three years or so for millions or dollars to do, well, whatever it is you do.  They have a platform and, as such, as using it. 

Change isn't always comfortable.  Fact of the matter is this, if you protested at your work no one would care.  These players do it and it gets attention.  It's different and any reasonable person understands this. 

The almost comical thing about this (and it Dave said we have a fetish about the flag, he's right); until around 2011 players were never even on the field for the anthem (none of them).  There is a lot of money behind the players being mandated to being on the field now, it's not due to "service to country."  Think those National Guard commercials you see during the games are free?  Until WWII the anthem wasn't played on a consistent basis at anything, it wasn't even adopted as our "official" anthem until the 30's. 

This isn't about the troops, or being a patriot.  It's simply about not wanting to listen.  But it's really easy to use the troops and the rest of it as a scapegoat.  Otherwise you don't love your country.  Right?  Well I was taught, by some really smart people with a lot of really shiny things on some really important uniforms a very important lesson.  It begins and ends like this - "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[CF DolFan]

First, thanks for understanding I was using your post as an example (versus highlighting you).  I appreciate that.

The moment anyone brings the flag, anthem, pledge into any argument or "discussion," really, all other points are missed and lost.  Right?  If you don't stand, you're not "supporting the troops."  If you don't say the pledge you don't support the country and "everything people before you died for."

So, really, this gets twisted in so many ways it's almost not worth talking about (not with YOU, but the proverbial you, the general public) due to either their:
1: Inability to look beyond their own stance and belief;
2: Lack of knowledge in current and past history, and;
3: Refusal to understand, or even trying to comprehend "sea to shining sea" means vastly different things to vastly different people.

I'll take the constant "I came to a football game to see a football game, not your protest" (1) and "yes, you can protest, but not at work" (2) comments.  When all else fails, it always comes back to one of the two.  Right?

1:  An NFL game is, what?  3:00 hours in length?  The national anthem (if you're even in your seat for it and not in the beer or merch line) is maybe 2:00 minutes.  If Kenny Stills (example) kneels, due to his beliefs, during this 2:00 minutes - this impacted your ability to watch the football game, how?
1a:  Take a player out of this and say four people sitting next to you knelt during the anthem.  Knelt, quiet, head bowed, respectful, stood when it was over.  Same question.

2:  Professional sports, as much as you want this to be "your work" - isn't. Otherwise you'd have millions of people following you on Twitter and IG and you'd sign a new contract ever three years or so for millions or dollars to do, well, whatever it is you do.  They have a platform and, as such, as using it. 

Change isn't always comfortable.  Fact of the matter is this, if you protested at your work no one would care.  These players do it and it gets attention.  It's different and any reasonable person understands this. 

The almost comical thing about this (and it Dave said we have a fetish about the flag, he's right); until around 2011 players were never even on the field for the anthem (none of them).  There is a lot of money behind the players being mandated to being on the field now, it's not due to "service to country."  Think those National Guard commercials you see during the games are free?  Until WWII the anthem wasn't played on a consistent basis at anything, it wasn't even adopted as our "official" anthem until the 30's. 

This isn't about the troops, or being a patriot.  It's simply about not wanting to listen.  But it's really easy to use the troops and the rest of it as a scapegoat.  Otherwise you don't love your country.  Right?  Well I was taught, by some really smart people with a lot of really shiny things on some really important uniforms a very important lesson.  It begins and ends like this - "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Maine .... seems easy to say that to the blue collar guy who feels that certain things ring patriotism but when Gold Star families say that it insults the memory of their slain family member and the answer back to them is supposedly "you just don't understand" or "you just refuse to see my point"? That seems a bit self righteous to me.  Why does the opinion of the kneelers outweigh those who feel insulted? I mean ... if we're being honest it is only opinion because no fact can prove whether it disrespects or not. So ... if the need to offend is greater than the need to try a different approach who is the asshole? 

[pondwater]

2:  Professional sports, as much as you want this to be "your work" - isn't. Otherwise you'd have millions of people following you on Twitter and IG and you'd sign a new contract ever three years or so for millions or dollars to do, well, whatever it is you do.  They have a platform and, as such, as using it. 

I don't quite understand your point here. No, professional sports isn't MY work. It's their work and their job is to play a child's game and chase a ball around. That's their platform. Their opinions while at work are meaningless.  If Kenny Stills wants to share his feeling about racial shit, unicorns, or any other personal opinions. Maybe he can go on the Dr. Phil show, CNN, or get his own show. The NFL is a business about football, all the rest is bullshit.