Donald Trump getting impeached

[CF DolFan]

In any case, you are basically admitting that the republican base are people who will start a Civil War against the country who want to remove a President that has committed a crime. Please tell me how that is OK?

Right on time this article popped up on the Daily Mail and it doesn't have anything to do with impeachment.

Majority of Americans believe the country is on the brink of civil war and blame Trump, social media and journalists for a growing division, says new poll


-New poll says public blames social media, news media, and Trump for divisions

-Georgetown University Institute of Politics director said: 'Majority of Americans believe that we are two-thirds of the way to being on the edge of civil war'

-Expert believes the 2020 Presidential election 'has the potential to be a race to the bottom' and it's possible voters won't like either candidate

-Nearly 84% said they're 'tired of leaders compromising [their] values and ideals'
Respondents want 'compromise and common ground' plus leaders who 'stand up to the other side' which Georgetown director said 'creates mixed messages'

-A Democrat pollster of the bipartisan survey said Trump isn't the cause of today's 'rude' politics but the symptom of a new society


I think this about sums it up. eight in 10 voters want both 'compromise and common ground' as well as leaders who 'will stand up to the other side'.... 'The majority of Americans believe that we are two-thirds of the way to being on the edge of civil war. That to me is a very pessimistic place,' Elleithee added. 'It seems to me what they're saying is, "I believe in common ground, it's just that common ground is where I'm standing".'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7610393/Majority-Americans-think-country-brink-civil-war-blame-Trump-division.html

[Dave Gray]

Again...this is bullshit.

Conservatives don't want middle ground. 

Obamacare was the middle-ground.  Conservatives killed it.  Liberals want socialized medicine.  Conservatives want a complete free market.  The compromise was Obamacare.  Mandated free-market health care...killed.

Again...the mainstream democrat position IS the middle ground on almost every issue.

This is more "both sides are the problem" bullshit.

[Dave Gray]

Ugh....I feel like such a dick.

I really appreciate CF trying to give the olive branch.


But my side has been giving the olive branch my whole life.  Meet me in the middle for once.

[CF DolFan]

Dave with all do respect it's not the middle just because you say it is compared to the line you have drawn. Take Obamacare for instance and I'll only use one part. It forced people to pay for insurance and then penalized them if they didn't. How is that meeting in the middle? There is no choice and that is communism to me. Meeting in the middle is allowing people to choose to participate. The previous conditions mandate is good but there needs to be some sort checks and balances so it is not abused.

[Fau Teixeira]

Dave with all do respect it's not the middle just because you say it is compared to the line you have drawn. Take Obamacare for instance and I'll only use one part. It forced people to pay for insurance and then penalized them if they didn't. How is that meeting in the middle? There is no choice and that is communism to me. Meeting in the middle is allowing people to choose to participate. The previous conditions mandate is good but there needs to be some sort checks and balances so it is not abused.

not to belabor the point but
a - it was a republican plan to begin with
b - the choice was to not buy health insurance and instead pay a tax. communism is nothing like that, in fact you could say that a government mandate to buy products and services provided by a private corporation is in fact the opposite of communism. just because it's "There is no choice and that is communism to me" doesn't make it communism, it would be just as accurate for you to say "There is no choice and that is astronomy to me"

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Obamacare was the middle-ground. 

Obamacare was way less aggressive in providing care to all than the more socialistic program proposed by Richard Nixon.

Republicans today would consider Nixon and Reagan as bleeding heart liberals.

[TonyB0D]

Trump's definitely getting impeached, however, he won't be convicted, and even if he is, removal from office won't be the penalty seeing as he has such a short time left in office.  I absolutely guarantee you 100000% that this makes his re-election an absolute stone cold lock of the century.

[MaineDolFan]

Serious question for the folks in this thread, I have a legit curiosity:  

Outside of "hearing myself talk" why do you participate in verbal jarring with folks about politics?  You're not changing your mind, no matter what you put into caps or how many insults you toss around the other folks won't, either.  

Your intended audience is barely reading what you write.  They are simply sitting back and waiting to attack what you've written and say you're wrong, in some form or another.

Scroll through these nine pages, see for yourselves.

So, why bother?  

[Dave Gray]

Serious question for the folks in this thread, I have a legit curiosity: 

Outside of "hearing myself talk" why do you participate in verbal jarring with folks about politics?  You're not changing your mind, no matter what you put into caps or how many insults you toss around the other folks won't, either. 

Your intended audience is barely reading what you write.  They are simply sitting back and waiting to attack what you've written and say you're wrong, in some form or another.

Scroll through these nine pages, see for yourselves.

So, why bother? 

I think it's important to get on the record.  And I think that a lot of people (myself included) are in a bubble of like-minded friends, so it can be helpful to see what other people think and how willing they are to engage in discussion or see your points.

I like to think I'm pretty fair-minded and am capable at giving an inch.  Maybe I'm naive, but that's my intention, at least.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Serious question for the folks in this thread, I have a legit curiosity:  

Outside of "hearing myself talk" why do you participate in verbal jarring with folks about politics?  You're not changing your mind, no matter what you put into caps or how many insults you toss around the other folks won't, either.  

Your intended audience is barely reading what you write.  They are simply sitting back and waiting to attack what you've written and say you're wrong, in some form or another.

Scroll through these nine pages, see for yourselves.

So, why bother?  

So in 50 years when grandchildren ask me, “Grandpa, why did you allow such a madman to take over the country and do so much damage to our democracy and the world?”. I can honestly tell them, I never supported Trump.

[Spider-Dan]

Serious question for the folks in this thread, I have a legit curiosity:  

Outside of "hearing myself talk" why do you participate in verbal jarring with folks about politics?  You're not changing your mind, no matter what you put into caps or how many insults you toss around the other folks won't, either.  

Your intended audience is barely reading what you write.  They are simply sitting back and waiting to attack what you've written and say you're wrong, in some form or another.

Scroll through these nine pages, see for yourselves.

So, why bother?

Despite whom they are directed towards, my posts in these threads are not for people like CF or pondwater; I know they are politically aware enough to easily develop reasons to dismiss anything I might bring up to them.

My posts are aimed at two audiences:

1) People like myself when I was in my twenties.  While I was a consistent voter, outside of the presidency I didn't particularly follow politics and subscribed to the kind of "both parties are terrible so who cares" mentality that's common among many.  It wasn't until 2008 that I learned that the two major parties have some really meaningful distinctions.  There are many people who don't really know a whole lot about politics, view some random right-wing commentary by someone who seems to know what they are talking about, and get lured down the rabbit hole to conservatism (or worse, the alt-right).  My goal is to prevent that - or ideally, reverse it.

2) Other leftists like Fau and Dave.  I have personally benefited a great deal by reading and watching people smarter and more politically experienced than me poke holes in right-wing arguments, and I hope that my observations here may be useful to fellow liberals when they have these kinds of discussions in other contexts (especially: in real life).

So yeah, I'm not naive enough to think that (for example) I can convince a Republican that taxes are a good thing, or convince a Christian that the idea of God is not necessary to live a moral life.  I'm just hoping to convince the bystanders, or failing that, provide a bigger song list to the choir.

P.S. Something many in this thread may find amusing: at my work, I have a co-worker who is in the Bernie/Jill Stein "Hillary rigged the primary" crowd.  He considers me to be a neoliberal establishment shill and not really even a true leftist.  Politics are relative. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I strongly doubt August Landmesser changed anyone’s mind or that his actions had any appreciable impact on events in history.  Yet, I still challenge the dismantling of democracy.

[Dave Gray]

2) Other leftists like Fau and Dave.  I have personally benefited a great deal by reading and watching people smarter and more politically experienced than me poke holes in right-wing arguments, and I hope that my observations here may be useful to fellow liberals when they have these kinds of discussions in other contexts (especially: in real life).

This is an excellent point, and one that I agree with.  Dan sometimes phrases my own words better than I know how.  Or can Occam's Razor my position to be simpler and more straightforward to understand.

I also would like it said that sometimes I just don't have the energy for every fight on every topic, so I really like to lurk.  Sometimes I take the lead in the discussion and sometimes I just can't.  And sometimes, someone with my position is doing a fine job of representing my side, so I stay out and enjoy the narrative. 

[CF DolFan]

I only get into these threads when bored. I'm old enough to know no one gets their opinion changed by reading an alternative on a message board. I will say that since the left views in here are quire far left I do sometimes hear opinions I wasn't expecting.  Most of the leftists I associate with would be considered almost conservative by comparison  and that goes for my gay and lesbian friends and relatives. 

[Fau Teixeira]

it's also dependent on what you consider yourself to be .. there's left vs right then there corporatist vs populist and i think that the populist left gets labeled as far left .. but in reality it's much more majoritarian than the corporatist left is