WSJ--The Myth of Systemic Police Racism

[Dolphster]

Gotta say that I'm proud of the board dudes for making this a respectful and polite discussion.  Speaking for myself, I have given a lot more consideration to views that are different from mine here the last few days than I would if everyone was being dismissive and rude asses to each other.  Well done, guys. 

[Dave Gray]

Gotta say that I'm proud of the board dudes for making this a respectful and polite discussion.  Speaking for myself, I have given a lot more consideration to views that are different from mine here the last few days than I would if everyone was being dismissive and rude asses to each other.  Well done, guys. 

Cram it, stupid.

[Tenshot13]

Cram it, stupid.

[Pappy13]

The underlying theme of the article you linked, in case you didn't catch it, Is that he's saying that black people are by nature more violent and prone to criminality than white people.

That's not at all what the author was saying. The author did not state the reason that black people are more prone to criminality is because of their skin color, she simply said that it's a fact black people are involved with more criminal activity. There could be plenty of reasons for that beyond skin color. It could be because of their socio-economic status. I think it's likely that people living at the low end of the spectrum are subjected to a much larger criminal element then those not. Location is also another factor, many of these people are living in highly populated urban areas which again are populated with a higher criminal element. It's not because they are black, rather it's the fact that a higher percentage of black people live under circumstances that put them in direct contact with criminal elements. I think if you removed race from the demographics and instead substituted some of these other variables I think you would see the correlation. It's misleading to put race into the equation, on both sides of the argument. That is what this country has lost sight of.

[Dave Gray]

Why did you feel the need to ask what my point was?  What did you think I was getting at?

I earnestly didn't know what you were getting at, which is why I asked.



I think that there's something that we're glossing over.  It's not that the police are inherently racist.  It's that the system is built on a racist foundation, which leads to a lack of care to those communities, a lack of arrests, a lack of convictions, and a lack of change.  The fact that this continues to happen and the system doesn't really do anything to fix it is a big part of the problem.

It's not as simple as there was one racist cop.  It's that he was empowered by colleagues that did nothing, confronted a crowd that was helpless to influence him, supported by a precinct that didn't arrest him, pre-empted by a long history of a precedence of similar behavior, and excused as a isolated incident by a good portion of the population who diminishes the problem.

[Dolphster]

Cram it, stupid.

LOL, well played!

[Tenshot13]

Funny enough, an article appeared on my Reddit feed addressing a recent Tucker Carlson segment breaking down each of the 10 unarmed African Americans that were killed last year by police.  When I go to the Washington Post database on this, I come up with 15, so I don't know if he weeded those out for some reason or if that were added later, and I really don't have the time to look into those 5 people, if someone else wants to, then great.  I already know this is going to be dismissed as it's a Daily Caller article and I know you guys love Tucker  .  There is an obvious conservative bias, however I do not think the "facts" they use are untruthful, so I'll try to focus on those.  Once again, I have a hard time understanding how unarmed African Americans are being killed at an alarming rate when statistics don't back it up.  I'll post the more important parts of the article, but feel free to read the whole thing and let me know what you think.


...“Since 2015, The Washington Post has maintained a comprehensive database of fatal police shootings in this country,” said Carlson. “Last year, the Post logged 1,004 killings. Of the 802 shootings in which race of the police officer and the suspect was noted, 371 of the those killed were white; 236 were black. The vast majority of those killed were not in fact, ‘unarmed.’ The vast majority were armed, and Africans American suspects were significantly more likely to have a deadly weapon than white suspects. Yet more white suspects were killed.”

Carlson counted “precisely ten cases” listed by the Post “in which unarmed African Americans were fatally shot by police. There were nine men and one woman.” (RELATED: Tucker Carlson Condemns Calls For ‘Lynch Mobs’ Designed To ‘Subvert Our Justice System’)

Then, the Daily Caller co-founder listed specifics about each one:

“The first was a man called Channara Pheap. He was killed by a Knoxville police called officer Dylan Williams. According to Williams, Pheap attacked him, choked him and then used a Taser on him … before the officer shot him. Five eyewitnesses corroborated the officer’s claim, and the officer was not charged.”

“The second case concerns a man called Marcus McVae. He was by any description a career criminal from San Angelo, Texas. He’d been ‘convicted of aggravated assault, assault on a public servant, and organized criminal activity.’ At the time he was killed he was wanted on drug dealing charges. A Texas state trooper pulled him over. McVae fled in his car, then he fled on foot into the woods. There, he fought with a trooper, and was shot and killed. The officer was not charged in that case.”

“Marzues Scott assaulted a shop employee. When a female police officer arrived and ordered the suspect toward her car, he instead charged her and knocked her to the ground. At that point, she shot and killed him. The entire incident was caught on body camera. The officer was not charged.”

“Ryan Twyman was being approached by two LA County deputies when he backed into one of them with his vehicle. The deputy was caught in the car door. He and his partner opened fire. The deputies were not charged in that case.”

“Melvin Watkins of East Baton Rouge, Louisiana was shot by a deputy, after he allegedly drove his car to toward the deputy at high speed. The deputy was not charged.”

“Isaiah Lewis, meanwhile, wasn’t just unarmed, he was completely naked. Williams broke into a house, and then attacked a police officer. The police tased Williams, but he kept coming at them and attacking. The officers shot him. They were not charged.”

“Atatiana Jefferson [sic] was shot by a Fort Worth deputy called Aaron Dean. A neighbor had called a non-emergency number after seeing Jefferson’s door open thinking something might be wrong. When police arrived, Jefferson saw them approach from a window and was holding a gun at the time. According to body camera footage, the office shot Jefferson within seconds. That officer has been charged with homicide.”

“Christopher Whitfield was shot and killed in Ethel, Louisiana. He had robbed a gas station. Deputy Glen Sims, said his gun discharged accidentally while grappling with Whitfield. Sims, who is black himself, was not charged in that killing.”

“Kevin Mason was shot by police during a multi-hour standoff. While Mason turned out not to have a gun, Mason claimed to have a gun, claimed to be armed and vowed to kill police with it. They believed him. Mason had been in a shootout with police years before.”

“And, finally, the tenth case concerns Gregory Griffin, who was shot during a car chase. An officer called Jovanny Crespo claimed he saw someone pointing a gun at him. Later, a gun was in fact found inside the vehicle and yet Officer Crespo was charged anyway with aggravated manslaughter.”

A demonstrator holds a picture of George Floyd during a face off with the police near the White House in Washington, DC, on June 3, 2020. (Photo by Olivier DOULIERY / AFP) (Photo by OLIVIER DOULIERY/AFP via Getty Images)

After the list, Carlson contended that an “officer was attacked” before the shooting in five of them and one was an accident, which “leaves a total of four deaths during a pursuit or in a standoff.”

“So out of four, in two of those cases, in fully half, the officer was criminally charged,” Carlson said. “Is it possible that more of these officers should have been charged? Of course it’s possible. Justice is not always served, that’s for sure. But either way, this is a very small number in a country of 325 million people. This is not genocide. It’s not even close to genocide. It is laughable to suggest it is.”

The Fox News host argued that the number of killing by police is actually “dropping” from numbers seen during former President Barack Obama’s presidency.

“Last year was the safest year for unarmed suspects since The Washington Post began tracking police shootings,” he said. “It was the safest year for both white and black suspects.”

Meanwhile, the U.S. “remains a dangerous place for police officers,” with forty-eight “murdered in 2019,” more than all “unarmed suspects killed, of all races.”...

https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/03/tucker-carlson-police-shootings-genocide/

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

That's not at all what the author was saying. The author did not state the reason that black people are more prone to criminality is because of their skin color, she simply said that it's a fact black people are involved with more criminal activity. There could be plenty of reasons for that beyond skin color. It could be because of their socio-economic status. I think it's likely that people living at the low end of the spectrum are subjected to a much larger criminal element then those not. Location is also another factor, many of these people are living in highly populated urban areas which again are populated with a higher criminal element. It's not because they are black, rather it's the fact that a higher percentage of black people live under circumstances that put them in direct contact with criminal elements. I think if you removed race from the demographics and instead substituted some of these other variables I think you would see the correlation. It's misleading to put race into the equation, on both sides of the argument. That is what this country has lost sight of.

Or maybe AAs are not more prone to crime at all but are just more prone to prosecution. If a white person is let off with a warning and an AA is arrested and charged the numbers will reflect higher criminality of AA.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Philando Castile is counted among the armed AAs killed by officers.

[Dave Gray]

It's not just murder -- it's excessive force, it's profiling, it's planting evidence and nothing done about it, it's conviction rates of blacks vs whites, it's conviction rates depending on whether victims are white or black, it's all of it.  There is a cycle, too, where those communities don't cooperate with police because they don't trust them and their own crimes are not dealt with.  It's a whole slew of issues between the legal system and black communities.

This is a good conversation to have, because I think this is part of the root of the problem.  There are people who don't believe this is a real issue.  They hide behind "all lives matter" code, but Tucker seems to finally be saying it.  It sounds like this isn't a big deal to him.  I know Pondwater was one of the few people who used to say it.  ..he played down the severity of the issue and didn't think white privilege was a thing that existed.  But most just communicate in code.

[Tenshot13]

It's not just murder -- it's excessive force, it's profiling, it's planting evidence and nothing done about it, it's conviction rates of blacks vs whites, it's conviction rates depending on whether victims are white or black, it's all of it.  There is a cycle, too, where those communities don't cooperate with police because they don't trust them and their own crimes are not dealt with.  It's a whole slew of issues between the legal system and black communities.

This is a good conversation to have, because I think this is part of the root of the problem.  There are people who don't believe this is a real issue.  They hide behind "all lives matter" code, but Tucker seems to finally be saying it.  It sounds like this isn't a big deal to him.  I know Pondwater was one of the few people who used to say it.  ..he played down the severity of the issue and didn't think white privilege was a thing that existed.  But most just communicate in code.

Is there a way to quantify any of those things you are saying?  Excessive force and profiling, you may be able to find some examples of, but I don't think you're going to find proof of mass amounts of cops planting evidence.  Conviction rates of blacks vs whites, are these for first time offenders or repeat offenders?  Are you comparing first time offenders to repeat offenders?  Are all things equal?  These are things that I hear people say, but not prove.  You might be inundated with news articles explaining this sort of thing, but me and other's like me are not, so enlighten me.

Spider claimed unarmed blacks are being killed at an alarming rate by police, 2.5x more likely from what a quick google search shows me.  That rate is based off of 10-15 people depending on which source you believe, many of which are justified in the article I posted.  That's down from over 100 in 2015.  

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Is there a way to quantify any of those things you are saying?  Excessive force and profiling, you may be able to find some examples of, but I don't think you're going to find proof of mass amounts of cops planting evidence.  Conviction rates of blacks vs whites, are these for first time offenders or repeat offenders?  Are you comparing first time offenders to repeat offenders?  Are all things equal?  These are things that I hear people say, but not prove.  You might be inundated with news articles explaining this sort of thing, but me and other's like me are not, so enlighten me.

Spider claimed unarmed blacks are being killed at an alarming rate by police, 2.5x more likely from what a quick google search shows me, yet that number has gone down across the board.  In 2019 we're talking about 10-15 people depending on which source you believe, many of which are justified in the article I posted.  That's down from over 100 in 2015.  When you addressed my comment to him, you glossed over this and addressed other matters.

Of course we won’t find large scale proof of cops planting evidence.  Because cops are given the benefit of the doubt and it would be cops investigating any such claim. 

Also the issue in many ways isn’t that Floyd and others were murdered but the lack of accountability.  It took national protests and riots for the cop to be arrested.  The cop in Dallas who killed a man in his own home was allowed to leave the scene and it took days to arrest her. 

Going back to 1992 and Rodney King.  There weren’t any riots over King was beaten, the riots began when the cops were acquitted. 

[Tenshot13]

Of course we won’t find large scale proof of cops planting evidence.  Because cops are given the benefit of the doubt and it would be cops investigating any such claim.  

Also the issue in many ways isn’t that Floyd and others were murdered but the lack of accountability.  It took national protests and riots for the cop to be arrested.  The cop in Dallas who killed a man in his own home was allowed to leave the scene and it took days to arrest her.  

Going back to 1992 and Rodney King.  There weren’t any riots over King was beaten, the riots began when the cops were acquitted.  

I realize these points, and what I pointed out was addressed to Spider and his claim of unarmed African Americans being killed by police.  You're going to have a hard time just taking someone's word for it that police are planting evidence on anyone.  Some people would call that conspiracy level stuff, I'll just say it can't be addressed as an issue if there isn't proof of it.

I agree about the accountability factor, a lot of stuff could be avoided if the arrest was made quicker, and it should have been.  Rioters got their way, sure, but there shouldn't have been rioting to begin with, especially in a coordinated nation wide way...which is very odd in itself (Antifa?).  People can protest all they want, but the rioting is way way overboard, especially on such a national level.  At this rate, more people are going to die in riots than what they are rioting about.

[fyo]

A couple of people here are clearly either lying or living in a bubble the likes of which I have never seen.

I never get involved in these discussions, not online and almost never in private. And that's part of the problem. As the saying goes*, the only thing necessarily for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Good or not, men or not, far too many of us have clearly done nothing for far too long.

[Fau Teixeira]

Maga .. amirite?

https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/status/1268716877355810818

the official report was that he tripped and fell .. 2 hours later the cops were suspended without pay ..
I bet a trillion dollars that had there not been video this would have gone down as "he tripped"

This is why body cams should be mandatory.