The George Floyd Murder Trial Started

[pondwater]

She fired her gun by accident.  She didn't mean to shoot him.

I understand that. However, in my opinion once he got into the car she was perfectly justified to shoot him. The same reason they draw their weapons when they can't see your hands and start fumbling around in the car.

Those words are equal parts psychotically evil and criminally stupid* things I have ever read on this board.

(* and I used to read all of D4L's posts.)

Criminally? You're overly dramatic like a 12 girl in puberty. Is it objectively reasonable to assume that an officer in her situation could feel the criminal in question was an immanent threat to her or someone else's life?

[pondwater]

If she didn't have a taser, would a firearm have been a justifiable option?  Him driving off hastily in the car IS a threat to the public.   

Just him getting in the car after resisting arrest was a threat to the officers on scene.

What do you think of the Chicago guy, who complied with the police and got shot anyway?

Are you talking about Adam Toledo? According to the short clip I saw, they say he had a gun? I'm sure more info will be forthcoming.

Or that person in Texas who was shot in killed for the crime of living in an apartment?

I think that the officer in the Botham case made a mistake and she was found guilty and sentenced to 10 years. It really doesn't compare to the Floyd or Wright.

[pondwater]

There is a larger question of whether or not we should even have armed police pulling people over for traffic citations and air freshers.  You can make a case that that's more of a meter maid's job.  But either way, I don't think that's what this woman should be on trial for -- that entire broken system.

Sure, how about this. Take all the guns away from patrol officers. Then when they want to take someone into custody they just send 8 officers to the scene with pepper spray and tasers to hog tie the criminal and transport him to jail. However, if in the process of being arrested the criminal pulls a weapon and shoots at and/or kills someone he either turns himself in or is shot on sight by the SWAT team. Is that a better solution? Or we should we just let the criminals roam the streets like Chicago, Detroit, Memphis, and Jackson?

[Spider-Dan]

It is really bizarre to see the same people who think the government shouldn't be forcing you to wear a mask during a pandemic then turn around and say that of course a police officer should be able to execute you for backtalking them.

When, exactly, are commands from the government to be immediately obeyed without question?  And when is it OK to summarily execute people for any delay in hasty compliance?

[Fau Teixeira]

When the morons invaded the capital on Jan 6th I wonder if pondwater also thinks that the cops had full right to shoot everyone that passed a barricade when told not to since they were posing imminent threats to police.

[Spider-Dan]

Here's an equally good question:

If a police officer shouts "PUT ON YOUR FUCKING MASK RIGHT NOW!" while they have you at gunpoint and you don't swiftly comply, can they execute you on the spot because you're possibly trying to infect them with a deadly disease?

[pondwater]

When the morons invaded the capital on Jan 6th I wonder if pondwater also thinks that the cops had full right to shoot everyone that passed a barricade when told not to since they were posing imminent threats to police.

Here's an equally good question:

If a police officer shouts "PUT ON YOUR FUCKING MASK RIGHT NOW!" while they have you at gunpoint and you don't swiftly comply, can they execute you on the spot because you're possibly trying to infect them with a deadly disease?

Hahaha, nice but predictable liberal spin. You guys are so damn silly. I'm not talking about masks or trespassing. I'm talking about Daunte Wright, a violent criminal with an active warrant who was resisting arrest and assaulting law enforcement officers. Who then jumped into his car.

At that point it is a self defense issue. There is no way to know if the scumbag was going for a weapon or not. The fact that she shot him instead of using her taser really doesn't matter. Are you guys actually arguing that law enforcement aren't allowed to protect or defend themselves? See, that's what's wrong with the country. There are too many extremists on both sides that common sense has gone out the window and both of you fit into that category.

The legal standards governing deadly force:

Constitutionally, "police officers are allowed to shoot under two circumstances," says criminologist David Klinger of the University of Missouri St. Louis. The first circumstance is "to protect their life or the life of another innocent party" — what departments call the "defense-of-life" standard. The second circumstance is to prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect poses a dangerous threat to others.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm talking about Daunte Wright, a violent criminal with an active warrant who was resisting arrest and assaulting law enforcement officers.

Just to clarify, here: are you saying that in the absence of a verified criminal identity and confirmed outstanding warrant, you do not support the use of lethal force in response to resisting arrest?

Now, let's talk about those standards you just listed.

A cop ordering a person to wear a legally-mandated mask to prevent the transmission of a deadly disease sounds like "protecting their life or the life of another innocent party" to me.  And if that person tries to walk away, that also sounds like the escaping suspect poses a dangerous threat to others.  So according to the legal standard you just cited, it sounds like a refusal to wear a mask is, indeed, grounds for a cop to empty his clip magazine into the offender's back.

[pondwater]

Just to clarify, here: are you saying that in the absence of a verified criminal identity and confirmed outstanding warrant, you do not support the use of lethal force in response to resisting arrest?

Go back and read what I posted. I support those two circumstances.

Now, let's talk about those standards you just listed.

A cop ordering a person to wear a legally-mandated mask to prevent the transmission of a deadly disease sounds like "protecting their life or the life of another innocent party" to me.  And if that person tries to walk away, that also sounds like the escaping suspect poses a dangerous threat to others.  So according to the legal standard you just cited, it sounds like a refusal to wear a mask is, indeed, grounds for a cop to empty his clip magazine into the offender's back.

That's the stupidest thing I've read this year? When you post silly shit like this you can't blame anyone but yourself for not being taken serious.

[Spider-Dan]

Go back and read what I posted. I support those two circumstances.

I have no idea what this non-response means, so I'll be more direct this time:

Don't bother throwing out this "He's a violent criminal with an outstanding warrant" drivel when you don't actually care about those things.  If you happily cheer on non-felons with no warrants being gunned down by police because they didn't comply fast enough, this "He was no angel" stuff is just an excuse for something you already support anyway.

That's the stupidest thing I've read this year? When you post silly shit like this you can't blame anyone but yourself for not being taken serious.

You claim that attempting to escape in a car is obviously a deadly threat necessitating lethal force in response... and you think that I'M the one who shouldn't be taken seriously?  Sure.

[pondwater]

I have no idea what this non-response means, so I'll be more direct this time:

Don't bother throwing out this "He's a violent criminal with an outstanding warrant" drivel when you don't actually care about those things.  If you happily cheer on non-felons with no warrants being gunned down by police because they didn't comply fast enough, this "He was no angel" stuff is just an excuse for something you already support anyway.

Because if he wasn't a violent criminal with an outstanding warrant he would have just gotten a ticket and still be alive. Or, since he had a warrant, if he accepted the fact that that he was going to jail one way or the other. And acted like a grown ass man, he would have bailed out of jail and still been alive. His own choices directly led to his death. I bet if he had a "do over", he would have just let them him to jail.

So are you saying that you don't support law enforcement protecting themselves or someone else's life if a person is a threat?

You claim that attempting to escape in a car is obviously a deadly threat necessitating lethal force in response... and you think that I'M the one who shouldn't be taken seriously?  Sure.

No, I claim that ANYONE resisting arrest, assaulting law enforcement, and then ENTERING their car should be met with lethal force. No one knew before hand why he entered the car. Mind readers don't exist. Was he going to drive away and kill someone in a high speed chase? Was he going for a weapon? Did he just want his bag of Cheetos to bring to jail with him? 

Since you know so much Spider, tell us why he was entering his car?

[Fau Teixeira]

i thought his warrant was for a non-violent offense .. pot i believe i read

[pondwater]

i thought his warrant was for a non-violent offense .. pot i believe i read

2019 - Wright pleaded guilty to marijuana charges and disorderly conduct.
2019 - Wright was charged with aggravated robbery at gunpoint.
2020 - Wright was charged with of carrying a weapon without a permit and fleeing from the police.

I would consider anyone committing armed robbery a violent criminal. Not to mention, battery or assault of law enforcement is a felony in itself in many jurisdictions. He had 2 firearm related charges. This isn't rocket science.

I find it funny that the liberals that want more common sense gun laws don't want to enforce the laws on the books already. This guy was a criminal with firearm related charges. He belonged off the streets. Do you guys propose that law enforcement just run away and let violent criminals go when they put up a struggle during an arrest? Do you guys propose that law enforcement shouldn't protect themselves when a criminal with a history of firearms related charges jumps into his car after resisting arrest. Maybe once Wright jumped in his car, the cops should have put their hands in the air and said, "Hands up, don't shoot".

Since all you social justice warriors want to make a difference in the world and have all the answer, why don't you go apply to be a law enforcement officer. It's easy to play Monday morning QB after the fact.

[Spider-Dan]

Because if he wasn't a violent criminal with an outstanding warrant he would have just gotten a ticket and still be alive.

Philando Castile would disagree if he were still alive to do so.

And when non-felon citizens like Philando Castile and John Crawford are gunned down, what is your response?  It's... to blame other black people somewhere else:

However, blacks are not being gunned down in the street like stray dogs, at least not by police. Look to your own community for that distinction. Going by statistics, as a concerned black person, you should realize that your greatest risk is not from the police. It's from black people.

So spare me this hand-wringing about how Wright was a Dangerous Violent Criminal.  Even when it's a person with a spotless record, you still won't hold the police accountable.  A police officer walked into a man's apartment and shot him dead for no reason, and all you could do was make excuses for her.  The lives of these victims hold no value to you, regardless of any crime they may or may not have committed.

So are you saying that you don't support law enforcement protecting themselves or someone else's life if a person is a threat?

I reject the premise; they were not a threat.

No, I claim that ANYONE resisting arrest, assaulting law enforcement, and then ENTERING their car should be met with lethal force. No one knew before hand why he entered the car. Mind readers don't exist. Was he going to drive away and kill someone in a high speed chase? Was he going for a weapon? Did he just want his bag of Cheetos to bring to jail with him?  

Since you know so much Spider, tell us why he was entering his car?

Entering your car is not a deadly action requiring lethal force in response.  And neither is driving away!

Every act of disobedience of the directions of an officer is not immediately escalated to a deadly act requiring lethal force in response just because you can IMAGINE something more dangerous they might do later.  Walking back into my house in contradiction to an officer's instructions does not itself justify an officer immediately shooting me multiple times in the back just because they think I might have a knife in my house.

It's clear that you understand this concept quite clearly when it comes to people disobeying orders to put on a mask, or disobeying orders to not invade the seat of our federal legislature.  Those things are conveniently "not dangerous" in your eyes.  But suddenly, when it comes to a black man getting in his car, Well Maybe He Has A Bomb In His Car And He's Going To Set It Off!  Better kill him anyway, just in case!

This guy was a criminal with firearm related charges. He belonged off the streets.

Unlike you, I believe that the punishment for crimes - including being "taken off the streets" - should come after a trial and conviction.  The fact that Wright previously served time for earlier convictions does not entitle police to summarily execute him.

[dolphins4life]

Spider, this is for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g&t=239s  This is why I normay side with aw enforcement in these situations.                                 
            George Floyd is different because he was handcuffed and posed no threat.                                                                                          It is impossibe, however, to ignore the double standard in terms of these situations and the no shootings in the capita riots