The far right and far left

[Spider-Dan]

While Democrats are indeed centrist or center-right on most economic issues compared to many European left-wing parties, on the particular topic of immigration, Democrats would be considered unelectable far-left cranks in Europe.  The position of the Democratic Party is that any child - even the children of illegal immigrants - born on US soil is automatically and inviolably an American citizen, and that any suggestion of an alternative interpretation of the 14th Amendment would immediately disqualify a candidate in the Democratic Party.  (The Supreme Court has upheld this interpretation of the law.)

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but keep that in mind before we go too far down the "Democrats would be center-right in Europe" rabbit hole.  Liberal European parties are to the left of Democrats on some issues, and to the right on others.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There is no way to know of course, but I would be very interested to find out if those 175 truly believed the election fraud narrative or if they were just pulling the common and disgusting political tactic of pandering/appeasement to what they perceive to be a strong voting block within their constituency.

Does it matter.  Either they are delusional and shouldn’t be in power or they are willing to destroy our democracy to pander for votes and should be in power.  There is no equivalent on the other side no matter how often people want to claim both sides do it.

[Spider-Dan]

Does it matter.  Either they are delusional and shouldn’t be in power or they are willing to destroy our democracy to pander for votes and should be in power.  There is no equivalent on the other side no matter how often people want to claim both sides do it.

Absolutely true.

There is functionally no difference between a politician who is pretending to believe that the election was stolen (and acting accordingly) vs. a politician who genuinely believes the election was stolen (and is taking exactly the same actions).

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

While Democrats are indeed centrist or center-right on most economic issues compared to many European left-wing parties, on the particular topic of immigration, Democrats would be considered unelectable far-left cranks in Europe.  The position of the Democratic Party is that any child - even the children of illegal immigrants - born on US soil is automatically and inviolably an American citizen, and that any suggestion of an alternative interpretation of the 14th Amendment would immediately disqualify a candidate in the Democratic Party.  (The Supreme Court has upheld this interpretation of the law.)

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but keep that in mind before we go too far down the "Democrats would be center-right in Europe" rabbit hole.  Liberal European parties are to the left of Democrats on some issues, and to the right on others.

While Birthright citizenship is almost nonexistent in Europe, it is the norm in almost every country in both North and South America and the Caribbean.  So the US policy here is consistent with the entire Western hemisphere.  Healthcare, gun control, education, climate change, and maternity leave the US stands alone.

[pondwater]

There isn’t a far left in the USA as judge by international standards.

Biden and Obama is in every other democratic country center-right.

In every other democracy universal health care is mainstream.  Obama’s most aggressive proposal for health care would be considered too conservative in every other county.  Bernie Sanders is a centrist and the norm in every other country on healthcare.

Being a member of the Paris climate accord is accepted by both the left and right in every other country — that is a centrist position.  Democrats are centrist on the environment, republicans are off the map.

Paid maternity leave is not a leftist position, it is the norm in every other country.  The democratic are right of center on this issue.  Republicans are off the map.

Our lack of gun control is considered insane in every other country.  Gun control is not a left- right issue, it is universally accepted by both the left and right.  Even the most ardent gun control proposals by democrats would not align us with the rest of the world.  The democrats are right wing on this issue.  The GOP is off the map.

Free or very affordable college tuition is not left wing, it is the norm in every other democracy. Sanders and AOC are the centrist on this issue.  Anyone opposing them are far right.

Abortion rights is the norm in most democracies, but not theocracies.  The democratic party is centrist on this issue.  The republicans are far right.

There are no leftist in power in the USA.  Sanders and AOC are centrist.  Biden and Clinton are right of center.  Louis Farrakan is as far to the left as Romney is to the right.  The extremists are on the right not the left. 

Yeah, that's why there are actually different countries. If you think other countries better fit your lifestyle, by all means, pack your shit a go. I don't understand why you people want every country to be the same? If you want tacos, you go to taco bell. You don't go to Burger King and demand that they have to serve you a tacos. What other countries do is irrelevant because we aren't other countries. 

[Fau Teixeira]

Yeah, that's why there are actually different countries. If you think other countries better fit your lifestyle, by all means, pack your shit a go. I don't understand why you people want every country to be the same? If you want tacos, you go to taco bell. You don't go to Burger King and demand that they have to serve you a tacos. What other countries do is irrelevant because we aren't other countries. 

This is a lazy, stupid idea.  99% of the people don't get to leave a country just because they don't like the policies. That's just not the world works. If you don't like how your country operates, then you change your country. That's what citizenship is. You are your country.

[Dolphster]

Does it matter.  Either they are delusional and shouldn’t be in power or they are willing to destroy our democracy to pander for votes and should be in power.  There is no equivalent on the other side no matter how often people want to claim both sides do it.

You do raise a reasonable question regarding whether it matters whether the politicians are delusional or willing to destroy the democracy to pander for votes and should not be in power.  Please keep in mind that my opinions are formed from actually working with these people and not from things I have read or heard other people say.  So at the risk of sounding conceited, I think I have a little more insight than most people.  

I would say that from my personal experiences, there are a small number of politicians who have drank the Kool Aid and are delusional.  I think that the majority are pandering for votes.  BUT, I don't think they would continue to roll out the feigned indignance pandering stances if it reached the point of being a threat to democracy.  I do get what you were saying in your comment but I think you took the concept of voter pandering to the very extreme when you talk about it threatening democracy.  There is a very large chasm between the standard political pandering and the level of pandering which would threaten the democracy.  

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if your comment of "there is no equivalent on the other side" was intended to mean that you don't think the left does the feigned indignancy ploy to pander to their constituents for votes, then you are so blinded by party loyalty that it has rendered you unable to see obvious facts.  Because both sides of the aisle do it.  If that isn't what your comment was referring to then I apologize.  

[Dolphster]

While Democrats are indeed centrist or center-right on most economic issues compared to many European left-wing parties, on the particular topic of immigration, Democrats would be considered unelectable far-left cranks in Europe.  The position of the Democratic Party is that any child - even the children of illegal immigrants - born on US soil is automatically and inviolably an American citizen, and that any suggestion of an alternative interpretation of the 14th Amendment would immediately disqualify a candidate in the Democratic Party.  (The Supreme Court has upheld this interpretation of the law.)

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but keep that in mind before we go too far down the "Democrats would be center-right in Europe" rabbit hole.  Liberal European parties are to the left of Democrats on some issues, and to the right on others.

Spider, although you and I disagree on most things, this post of yours was spot on and well thought out.  Even though we disagree on most things politically, I respect the fact that unlike a lot of people on here (from both sides of the aisle) you do seem to put thought and consideration into your posts rather than just parroting party lines.  The way you roll in here allows me to actually think about and consider opinions that differ from my own.  Even though we rarely see eye to eye, I appreciate what you bring to the board.

[Spider-Dan]

I think that the majority are pandering for votes.  BUT, I don't think they would continue to roll out the feigned indignance pandering stances if it reached the point of being a threat to democracy.

This isn't even a hypothetical.  As we speak, Congress is determining the appropriate response to a violent mob invading the Capitol with the express purpose of overturning a Presidential election.  This was as close as you can get to "a threat to our democracy" without actually being too late to stop it.  And the cynical panderers you refer to are still 100% on board.  The same politicians whose lives were at risk are still "pretending" to support the mob that wanted to (in the BEST case scenario) take them hostage.  There is no bottom here, no red line left to cross.

Spider, although you and I disagree on most things, this post of yours was spot on and well thought out.  Even though we disagree on most things politically, I respect the fact that unlike a lot of people on here (from both sides of the aisle) you do seem to put thought and consideration into your posts rather than just parroting party lines.  The way you roll in here allows me to actually think about and consider opinions that differ from my own.  Even though we rarely see eye to eye, I appreciate what you bring to the board.

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment.

[Dolphster]

This isn't even a hypothetical.  As we speak, Congress is determining the appropriate response to a violent mob invading the Capitol with the express purpose of overturning a Presidential election.  This was as close as you can get to "a threat to our democracy" without actually being too late to stop it.  And the cynical panderers you refer to are still 100% on board.  The same politicians whose lives were at risk are still "pretending" to support the mob that wanted to (in the BEST case scenario) take them hostage.  There is no bottom here, no red line left to cross.

I do agree that the group of lunatics who stormed the capital were looking to overturn the election and most probably going to hurt their foes if they got a hold of them.  The scariest part is that these morons considered themselves modern day "revolutionary forefathers" who were fighting tyranny like the founding fathers did.  And this is just my opinion, but I don't think that a handful of deluded idiots were an actual threat to our democracy.  Although I am usually right leaning in my politics, I hope each and every one of them is charged and convicted of the most serious charges possible.  1: Because you just don't do that shit and 2: To send a very clear signal to their sympathizers not to even think about pulling that shit

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if your comment of "there is no equivalent on the other side" was intended to mean that you don't think the left does the feigned indignancy ploy to pander to their constituents for votes, then you are so blinded by party loyalty that it has rendered you unable to see obvious facts.  Because both sides of the aisle do it.  If that isn't what your comment was referring to then I apologize.  

My “there is no equivalent “ does not apply to a willingness to pander.  My “no equivalent” does apply to a willingness to undermine a fair election to score points, (the democrats most certainly could have done that in 2000, they didn’t) disenfranchise opposing voters (democrats aren’t trying to make it harder for rural voters to vote, republicans are trying to make it harder for urban voters to vote) the democrats do not engage in scapegoating, the democrats do not engage in misinformation campaigns.  There is no democratic equivalent to MTG.  There is no democratic equivalent to January 8th.

[Dolphster]

My “there is no equivalent “ does not apply to a willingness to pander.  My “no equivalent” does apply to a willingness to undermine a fair election to score points, (the democrats most certainly could have done that in 2000, they didn’t) disenfranchise opposing voters (democrats aren’t trying to make it harder for rural voters to vote, republicans are trying to make it harder for urban voters to vote) the democrats do not engage in scapegoating, the democrats do not engage in misinformation campaigns.  There is no democratic equivalent to MTG.  There is no democratic equivalent to January 8th.

Ok, thanks for clarifying your comment for me.  I agree with you that at least in recent history there is no Democratic equivalent to January 8.   

I disagree with your assertion that the "democrats do not engage in scapegoating, the democrats do not engage in misinformation campaigns" but honestly I don't care enough to get into a drawn out debate with you on that one because you are as loyal to your party as CF DolFan is to his.  I don't mean that as an insult, but both of you have your parties on such a pedestal that no amount of evidence would ever convince either of you otherwise.  And I get that.  When I was younger I was guilty of the same thing.  Scapegoating and misinformation campaigns have been hallmarks of politics in this country (and all others) going back to before the Whig party. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

because you are as loyal to your party as CF DolFan is to his. 

I am not a democrat.  The democratic party has drifted too far too the right for me.  I support the democratic party with as much zeal as Winston Churchill and FDR supported Stalin and for the same reason.   

[pondwater]

This is a lazy, stupid idea.  99% of the people don't get to leave a country just because they don't like the policies. That's just not the world works. If you don't like how your country operates, then you change your country. That's what citizenship is. You are your country.

Obviously it is how it works. Plenty of people leaving their country because they want to be here. Go down to the border crisis and tell them all to go fix and change their country. Yes, I agree go fix your country, we don't need you.

[dolphins4life]

Another example is that the far right views George Floyd as a criminal who got what was coming to him because of his bad deeds, whereas the far eft views him as a hero.