Churches are burning in Canada

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Is (open and unobscured) native genocide a new and unheard of thing in Canada?  I thought they had a lot of similar history in that regard.

Canada didn’t have nearly as much genocide as the US.  Massive forced assimilation, including kidnapping children so orphanage could teach them Christianity rather than their native culture was Canada approach.  The facts that the children were killed rather than indoctrinated is new (and worse)

[Tenshot13]

Facts matter. 

The first says 7% of children have had some sort of inappropriate contact by all adults.  That includes teachers, coaches, priests, parents, friends parents etc. Including unreported cases.

The second one is the number of abuse case by the Catholic church as acknowledged by the Catholic church.

Not even apples and oranges.  You comparing apples and the number yellow.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/is-sexual-abuse-in-schools-very-common.html

The best available study suggests that about 10 percent of students suffer some form of sexual abuse during their school careers. In the 2000 report, commissioned by the American Association of University Women, surveyors asked students between eighth and 11th grades whether they had ever experienced inappropriate sexual conduct at school. The list of such conduct included lewd comments, exposure to pornography, peeping in the locker room, and sexual touching or grabbing. Around one in 10 students said they had been the victim of one or more such things from a teacher or other school employee, and two-thirds of those reported the incident involved physical contact. If these numbers are representative of the student population nationwide, 4.5 million students currently in grades K-12 have suffered some form of sexual abuse by an educator, and more than 3 million have experienced sexual touching or assault.

[Sunstroke]

If lewd comments and exposure to pornography qualify...I'm surprised that number isn't higher.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/is-sexual-abuse-in-schools-very-common.html

T The list of such conduct included lewd comments, exposure to pornography,

I don’t doubt 10% of students have heard a comment they considered lewd.  But a high school student being described as “attractive” by a school employee would meet that standard.  And, yes, that would be inappropriate.  But that is not the same thing as what the churches covered up.

[Fau Teixeira]

you mean thousands of unmarked graves ? yes .. that's different

[Tenshot13]

I don’t doubt 10% of students have heard a comment they considered lewd.  But a high school student being described as “attractive” by a school employee would meet that standard.  And, yes, that would be inappropriate.  But that is not the same thing as what the churches covered up.

You conveniently left out the part that matters and focused on the part that didn't...

If these numbers are representative of the student population nationwide, 4.5 million students currently in grades K-12 have suffered some form of sexual abuse by an educator, and more than 3 million have experienced sexual touching or assault.

First you call my post bullshit then you say I'm comparing apples to the number yellow, then you move the goalpost when I was only defending my post from earlier.  I don't understand what you're getting at.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

You conveniently left out the part that matters and focused on the part that didn't...

If these numbers are representative of the student population nationwide, 4.5 million students currently in grades K-12 have suffered some form of sexual abuse by an educator, and more than 3 million have experienced sexual touching or assault.

First you call my post bullshit then you say I'm comparing apples to the number yellow, then you move the goalpost when I was only defending my post from earlier.  I don't understand what you're getting at.

If you dig a little deeper that sentence is technically correct and highly misleading….

4.5 million students have had an inappropriate interaction with a teacher, administrator,  coach or other school employee which could range from something extremely serious such as sex to something relatively minor such a comment or staring. Also 3 million students have experienced sexual touching or assault by either an adult or another student.  (mostly peers)  But the sentence is structured to imply something very different.  And misinterpreted by most reports that rely on the initial misleading summary. 

[Tenshot13]

If you dig a little deeper that sentence is technically correct and highly misleading….

4.5 million students have had an inappropriate interaction with a teacher, administrator,  coach or other school employee which could range from something extremely serious such as sex to something relatively minor such a comment or staring. Also 3 million students have experienced sexual touching or assault by either an adult or another student.  (mostly peers)  But the sentence is structured to imply something very different.  And misinterpreted by most reports that rely on the initial misleading summary. 

So does this mean you still believe Catholic Priests are abusing kids at a higher rate than teachers?  What's your point is what I'm asking.

[Fau Teixeira]

So does this mean you still believe Catholic Priests are abusing kids at a higher rate than teachers?  What's your point is what I'm asking.

I believe that Catholic priests (and lets be real, evangelical ministers as well) are abusing children sexually while being aided and abetted by the organizations they represent, These churches all try to cover this up so that they aren't met with scandal and have for many years. I trust 0 clergy. Not a single one. They are all tainted.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So does this mean you still believe Catholic Priests are abusing kids at a higher rate than teachers?  What's your point is what I'm asking.

Yes, Catholic priests abuse children at a muc higher rate than teachers.  This is NOT the same thing as saying more children have been abused by a priest. Just that priest do it a much higher rate than teachers.  These are not the same thing, almost every child has multiple interactions with teachers and a number of them have had at least one bad experience with one out of the hundred or so teachers they interacted with.  OTOH, only a small number of children (relatively) has ever interacted with a priest, and a large number of those children have been abused by that priest.

But more importantly, while there have been incidents of teachers being allowed to resign after an accusation and then got hired elsewhere without the new school knowing of the past problems and getting hired elsewhere.  And some teachers and schools have engaged in coverups.  But for the most part teachers and administrators take abuse seriously.  You don’t have superintendents contacting other districts trying to place a serial rapist in a new school, the way the church moved around rapists.  There are bad teachers just like there are bad priests, the difference is the church’s systematic enabling of abuse.  

[Dolphster]

Yes, Catholic priests abuse children at a muc higher rate than teachers.  This is NOT the same thing as saying more children have been abused by a priest. Just that priest do it a much higher rate than teachers.  These are not the same thing, almost every child has multiple interactions with teachers and a number of them have had at least one bad experience with one out of the hundred or so teachers they interacted with.  OTOH, only a small number of children (relatively) has ever interacted with a priest, and a large number of those children have been abused by that priest.

But more importantly, while there have been incidents of teachers being allowed to resign after an accusation and then got hired elsewhere without the new school knowing of the past problems and getting hired elsewhere.  And some teachers and schools have engaged in coverups.  But for the most part teachers and administrators take abuse seriously.  You don’t have superintendents contacting other districts trying to place a serial rapist in a new school, the way the church moved around rapists.  There are bad teachers just like there are bad priests, the difference is the church’s systematic enabling of abuse.  

That is pretty much the bottom line for me.  The huge number of teachers compared to clergy makes an incident per incident comparison useless.  And as you said, it is rare for a teacher's leadership to try to cover up abuse.  Whereas it is rare for church leadership to NOT try to cover up abuse. 

[Tenshot13]

Yes, Catholic priests abuse children at a muc higher rate than teachers.  This is NOT the same thing as saying more children have been abused by a priest. Just that priest do it a much higher rate than teachers.  These are not the same thing, almost every child has multiple interactions with teachers and a number of them have had at least one bad experience with one out of the hundred or so teachers they interacted with.  OTOH, only a small number of children (relatively) has ever interacted with a priest, and a large number of those children have been abused by that priest.

But more importantly, while there have been incidents of teachers being allowed to resign after an accusation and then got hired elsewhere without the new school knowing of the past problems and getting hired elsewhere.  And some teachers and schools have engaged in coverups.  But for the most part teachers and administrators take abuse seriously.  You don’t have superintendents contacting other districts trying to place a serial rapist in a new school, the way the church moved around rapists.  There are bad teachers just like there are bad priests, the difference is the church’s systematic enabling of abuse. 

Most of what you said I already addressed, so you're actually agreeing with me lol.  But you are incorrect about the "much higher rate".  Like I stated earlier, 10,667 individuals were abused by priests or clergy in 52 years.  Even if they covered up more than that, it is pure speculation on your part and I don't think it would increase the number that much.  What I've posted regarding teachers is the closest you'll find to an accurate study.  You also have to keep in mind, teachers have a high turnover of students year in and year out, while priests are usually dealing with the same congregation, with fewer new people.  We both agree though, the fact that the Catholic church covers this up and is enabling the abuse makes it another degree of evil.  I have no love for the Catholic church, personally I think they have perverted Christianity and it's true belief system since the Great Schism in 1054 when it branched off from Christian Orthodox, but to me facts are facts, and the fact is priests don't abuse children as much as people think they do.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Most of what you said I already addressed, so you're actually agreeing with me lol.  But you are incorrect about the "much higher rate".  Like I stated earlier, 10,667 individuals were abused by priests or clergy in 52 years.  Even if they covered up more than that, it is pure speculation on your part and I don't think it would increase the number that much.  What I've posted regarding teachers is the closest you'll find to an accurate study.  You also have to keep in mind, teachers have a high turnover of students year in and year out, while priests are usually dealing with the same congregation, with fewer new people.  We both agree though, the fact that the Catholic church covers this up and is enabling the abuse makes it another degree of evil.  I have no love for the Catholic church, personally I think they have perverted Christianity and it's true belief system since the Great Schism in 1054 when it branched off from Christian Orthodox, but to me facts are facts, and the fact is priests don't abuse children as much as people think they do.

Lets research the number of students who have been abused by teachers using two different methods.

Method 1: Ask the superintendent of the school “how many students have been victims of pedephilia perpetrated by teachers.”

Method 2: Ask students if even once in their lifetime has a teacher, coach or other school official said something that made you uncomfortable, touched you in a way that made you uncomfortable, etc…..”

Do you think method 2 would yield a higher number than method 1 and maybe even capture some stuff that wasn’t actually inappropriate, but just an overly sensitive teen?  Do you think method 1 would underreport, missing both unreported case and abuse that was quite serious but didn’t involve intercourse?

Because method 1 is basically the Catholic church.  Method 2 is the study you cited.  The studies are not comparable .

 Plus further relevant info.  The study was done in a school district with known problems and extrapolated to the entire country.  Basically the equivalent as doing a poll in NYC about traffic and extrapolating it to conclude how much time all Americans are stuck in traffic. 

[masterfins]

Did you bother to read the article?  they remained active until the late 1990s.  So less than 30 years ago.  The Catholic Church has a history of protecting those who commit atrocities.

Yes I read the article that the schools remained in use until the 1990's, but it also covers a 130+ year time period.  The article fails to indicate when the deaths occurred, or when the abuse was occurring.  And again I don't condone any of it; however are we going to take retribution on people for something that happened in their lineage 100 years ago??

[Fau Teixeira]

There are living survivors with first hand accounts of the abuse. I'm not sure how much more recent you want.