Afghanistan

[Dave Gray]

I want to post about this, because it's such big news right now.

I wish I had more to contribute, but I just don't see anything but a terrible situation.

I don't really fault Obama for going in under the circumstances, though I can see why you'd not, if you could do it over again.
I didn't fault Trump for leaving, although I can see why you'd change that decision if you could go back.
I don't really fault Biden, as there doesn't seem to be anything that can fix it.  I don't really see any options that he has to do anything differently.

If we had hindsight, what do you do differently?  All of these choices were shitty.  But they were in a sea of other shitty choices.

What do you do now?  Where do you go from here?  I hate to be completely isolationist and allow religious extremists take over a nation and destroy civil rights.  But I don't even know how you help, unless you're going to stay there forever.

How awful.

[ArtieChokePhin]

We should've done what we did with Iraq.   Set up a Western style government.

[Fau Teixeira]

It was Bush that went in, not Obama.

This could have been prevented if the United States didn't help create the Taliban in the first place to fight against "atheist" soviets.

Religion is the problem. If the taliban was a strict christian or jewish organization people wouldn't give a shit.

There's nothing for us to do there, leaving is the best decision. While we're at it, lets get out of the korean peninsula as well.

[Dave Gray]

I think we kinda did set up a western-style government, but it got overthrown the second we left.

[Dave Gray]

It was Bush that went in, not Obama.

Oh yeah, I guess that's true.  My point remains.

I don't blame Bush for going in.  Obama for staying in.  Trump for leaving.  Or Biden for getting stuck holding the bag.

The whole situation sucks and religion is the culprit, you're right.  There's a fine line between helping democracy build naturally and trying to institute it to regions that are going to fight against it in greater numbers than will fight for it.

[Spider-Dan]

Just as a point of clarity:

Trump didn't leave (although he had four years to do so).  In the waning days of the 2020 campaign, he ordered the military to prepare for a full withdrawal effective May 2021.  So if he got reelected he could have done whatever he wanted (another surge, etc.), and if he didn't, it's somebody else's problem.  Typical Trump.

There is a group of people who will try to blame Biden for all the (unfortunate, but probably unavoidable) deaths and misery in Afghanistan over the next few months, while also crediting Trump with "ending the war." Trump didn't end the war; he did what he always does, which is shirk responsibility while performing theater.

[Spider-Dan]

There's nothing for us to do there, leaving is the best decision. While we're at it, lets get out of the korean peninsula as well.

Let's not draw equivalencies between Afghanistan and South Korea.  The latter is a stable and functional democracy, and there isn't a sizable chunk of South Koreans who culturally believe that the North Koreans have moral authority in their cause.

As to Afghanistan itself: the mission SHOULD have been to get in, deal with Bin Laden, and get out.  But when Dubya decides that Bin Laden was no longer that important and went off to invade Iraq, that was the beginning of the end.  We've spent 20 years there; it was time to get out, and whether we re-enacted Saigon today or 5 years from now, it was almost certain to happen.

[pondwater]

Just as a point of clarity:

Trump didn't leave (although he had four years to do so).  In the waning days of the 2020 campaign, he ordered the military to prepare for a full withdrawal effective May 2021.  So if he got reelected he could have done whatever he wanted (another surge, etc.), and if he didn't, it's somebody else's problem.  Typical Trump.

There is a group of people who will try to blame Biden for all the (unfortunate, but probably unavoidable) deaths and misery in Afghanistan over the next few months, while also crediting Trump with "ending the war." Trump didn't end the war; he did what he always does, which is shirk responsibility while performing theater.

Once Biden was elected he could have done whatever he wanted also. Trump isn't president anymore, you can't blame him for bad decisions that were made while Biden is in office. This fuck up is on Biden and his administration. What next, you gonna blame Gase for our shaky looking Oline in 2021.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, I think Biden made the correct choice to get out of Afghanistan.  The difference is that I actually assign that choice to him.

Who do YOU assign it to?

[pondwater]

Oh, I think Biden made the correct choice to get out of Afghanistan.  The difference is that I actually assign that choice to him.

Who do YOU assign it to?

I'm glad we agree who made the bad choice. And with that choice comes all the all the deaths and misery in Afghanistan over the next few months. Hell even most of the left wing media is dragging him over the coals. The Biden administration is a disaster

[Spider-Dan]

So just to clarify: you blame/credit Biden (and not Trump) with the decision to leave Afghanistan, then?

[pondwater]

So just to clarify: you blame/credit Biden (and not Trump) with the decision to leave Afghanistan, then?

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events. It's not specifically about leaving Afghanistan. It's about the manner in which it was carried out by the Biden administration. Both Trump and Biden were adamant about withdrawing all US troops from Afghanistan, and both were right. It's not our country and the US can't run it forever. But the idea that that this humiliating botched withdrawal plan belongs to anyone but Biden is preposterous. You can criticize the withdrawal while generally supporting ending the war effort in Afghanistan. Only a child could not understand this.

So much for your silly theory about a civilian population with small arms taking on nuclear powers. Looks like Afghanistan is 2-0 and beaten the 2 biggest kids on the block. And that's after smacking the British around before nuclear technology was invented LMFAO

[Spider-Dan]

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events. It's not specifically about leaving Afghanistan. It's about the manner in which it was carried out by the Biden administration.

In contrast, the manner in which Trump "carried out" our exit from Afghanistan was beyond reproach: he left it to someone else.

Both Trump and Biden were adamant about withdrawing all US troops from Afghanistan, and both were right.

I wouldn't say that Trump was "adamant" about doing a thing that we both agree he didn't do.  That's like saying Bush was "adamant" about privatizing Social Security or that Obama was "adamant" about closing GTMO.

So much for your silly theory about a civilian population with small arms taking on nuclear powers. Looks like Afghanistan is 2-0 and beaten the 2 biggest kids on the block.

Last I checked, Biden was still in the White House and his regime remains in control of our country.  Perhaps you believe the Taliban invasion is coming shortly?

I'll give the Taliban this, though: they did better than the Confederacy.  But I guess if you're the kind of person dedicated to cheering on American military defeats, you take what you can get.

[Fau Teixeira]

I think HOW we left Afghanistan is fine. We left, what more do you guys want? We told them we were leaving, we even delayed it a bit. Then we left. End of story. How would leaving in 3 months or 3 years be any different than what happened today.

This is like when it's time to get your child to leave a party and you tell him it's time to go and he throws a tantrum and yells and screams. So you leave anyways, he realizes it and starts chasing you back to your car cause now you're serious about leaving.

I think the Afghani government took the US presence for granted, didn't take training up their army seriously. Probably took funds meant for training and equipment and pocketed 60% of it into swiss bank accounts and dipped when the Taliban started this offensive.

It is not the responsibility of the US to babysit corrupt regimes. The people in Afghanistan who didn't like the Taliban are obviously outnumbered by the people that do. So again I ask, what's the problem here? People who are now out of power are going to have a tough time? Yep, and that's not any of our concern. I don't see any outrage on this board or in the media when IDF forces beat children in the streets or demolish Palestinian homes to make way for illegal settlers. Not a peep for that apartheid regime that won't even allow people of 2 different religions to marry. The only difference I see here is that Muslims are the aggressors here, so obviously there should be outrage.

[Fau Teixeira]

I'll give the Taliban this, though: they did better than the Confederacy.  But I guess if you're the kind of person dedicated to cheering on American military defeats, you take what you can get.

This is an American military defeat the same way a guy loses a fight because he walked away after knocking some other guy out cold on the street. By all measurements the US military won this war in every possible way. And then we left because we'd been there long enough.