How Flores stacks up against Gase, Philbin, and Sparano

[pondwater]

Up to this point, the Dolphins have failed Tua, just like Tannehill before him. I hate to say this, but if things don't work out for Tua in Miami and he winds up somewhere else in the NFL, I hope he lights our asses up every time we play him. We always seem to pick the wrong players. And in the rare event we do pick someone that's good, we cast them off to succeed with another team because we can't seem to figure out how to use or develop them. The Miami Dolphins are like the little retarded kid of the league. Plenty of potential, but mentally incapable of figuring it out.

[Dolphster]

My question is is Tua going to want to stay in Miami, or play his hardest knowing that the Dolphins don't appear to think very highly of him? He's got to see the writing on the wall. It's going to take a toll eventually.

Given the complete ineptitude in this organization that is rampant from ownership, to GM, to coaches, why would ANYONE want to stay in Miami?  From Day One, not only has this team not done anything to help Tua succeed, they have seemingly sabotaged him and shown zero confidence in him (and thereby preventing him from gaining any confidence in himself) and done everything possible to prevent him from succeeding. 

[Dolfanalyst]

My question is is Tua going to want to stay in Miami, or play his hardest knowing that the Dolphins don't appear to think very highly of him? He's got to see the writing on the wall. It's going to take a toll eventually.

QBs are going to have to get used to that because of the degree to which the game revolves around QB play.  Imagine if the Cardinals for example had kept Josh Rosen out of concern for his emotional development as a player, rather than jettisoning him after his rookie season in favor of drafting Kyler Murray #1 overall in the following draft.  They'd be mired at the bottom of the league right now instead of being legitimate Super Bowl contenders with Murray.  Likewise the Dolphins were in the position here of possibly obtaining a QB who's sustained a level of play Tua is unlikely to ever achieve.  Teams simply have to do what wins.

[Dolfanalyst]

Up to this point, the Dolphins have failed Tua, just like Tannehill before him. I hate to say this, but if things don't work out for Tua in Miami and he winds up somewhere else in the NFL, I hope he lights our asses up every time we play him. We always seem to pick the wrong players. And in the rare event we do pick someone that's good, we cast them off to succeed with another team because we can't seem to figure out how to use or develop them. The Miami Dolphins are like the little retarded kid of the league. Plenty of potential, but mentally incapable of figuring it out.

I would caution people from believing the Dolphins failed Tannehill.  Tannehill's performance in Tennessee has been a product of a number of difficult-to-replicate factors, and we're seeing him revert back to the average level as a player because the Titans cannot replicate those factors from year to year.  If your quarterback's individual success depends on a perfect alignment of the stars, and those stars are unlikely to align for long, you don't have a very good quarterback.  You'd much rather have one who can win with surroundings that more closely approximate the average level, as those are the surroundings any team is most likely to have.

[CF DolFan]

QBs are going to have to get used to that because of the degree to which the game revolves around QB play.  Imagine if the Cardinals for example had kept Josh Rosen out of concern for his emotional development as a player, rather than jettisoning him after his rookie season in favor of drafting Kyler Murray #1 overall in the following draft.  They'd be mired at the bottom of the league right now instead of being legitimate Super Bowl contenders with Murray.  Likewise the Dolphins were in the position here of possibly obtaining a QB who's sustained a level of play Tua is unlikely to ever achieve.  Teams simply have to do what wins.

The Cardinals absolutely supported Rosen right up until they didn't. He got a full season and some prior to dealing with it.

"...head coach Kliff Kingsbury reportedly confirmed it to Rosen only one minute before the pick was made."

"Hey, so we're about to draft Kyler," Kingsbury reportedly told Rosen on the phone. "...I don't really know what happens now." They traded Rosen the day after drafting a QB. 

[EDGECRUSHER]

Kyle Crabbs brought up some things this morning and it got me to thinking that Ross won't make any changes after the season.


1. Tua is done with this team. Short of ending this season looking like Patrick Mahomes of 2 years ago ... they want to move on. Ross and company have screwed that up almost as bad as they did when he ran to interview Harbough while he already had a coach. He hasn't had the support of the team really at any time and they have made it clear they will dump him when someone better comes along.
2. Decisions to fire head coach and/or GM would need to be done in January to prepare for next season.
3. They can't do anything with Watson until March and they aren't guaranteed to get him with other teams likely in play this time.
4. The only reason to go after Watson is because current staff is saying he is the difference to make his team win now.

I think when you put it all together they are planning to stay the course and make no changes. flores has said this a couple of times recently as why he isn't making changes. Somehow he thinks what he is doing will work and it looks like Ross is buying in to me.

I don't think Miami wanted to move on as much as they wanted Watson and somehow thought he could rush the QB when he wasn't on offense. The Texans are run by bigger idiots than Miami so they will demand 39 first rounders in the offseason for Watson and we will be out of the running and there will be no better options than Tua, who has played well in 3 of the 4 games with the 4th being not horrible against a very good defense.

He has no choice but to stay due to his contract but the team should offer up a very public apology to him on how poorly they have handled things. This should be accompanied by an introduction of the new coach and GM. Really, apologize to the whole team for wasting a year of their lives.

[Spider-Dan]

My question is is Tua going to want to stay in Miami, or play his hardest knowing that the Dolphins don't appear to think very highly of him? He's got to see the writing on the wall. It's going to take a toll eventually.

Players in the NFL, especially players on their rookie contracts, have very little leverage.  Look at how long it took for Kirk Cousins to get out of WSH.  Aaron Rodgers is still a Packer and Deshaun Watson is still a Texan.

[Spider-Dan]

I would caution people from believing the Dolphins failed Tannehill.  Tannehill's performance in Tennessee has been a product of a number of difficult-to-replicate factors, and we're seeing him revert back to the average level as a player because the Titans cannot replicate those factors from year to year.

To the extent that someone can be proven conclusively wrong in their assessment of a player, you were proven absolutely wrong about Tannehill.  The player that TEN received from MIA, when given a competent supporting cast, was FAR superior to any MIA QB of the last 20 years... and it's not even close.  Meanwhile, your argument against Tannehill from the start was that his play had little to do with the players around him... a point you are now using to dismiss his improvement.

Your attempts to downplay and deny Tannehill's high level of play in TEN just expose how committed you have been to disparaging him.  Essentially, even if he had had the same kind of season in MIA - one in which he leads the league in several efficiency metrics - you STILL would have been trashing him.

It's difficult to imagine that your credibility on the subject of QBs can be reduced even further, but you're making an impressive attempt to do so.

[hordman]

Given the complete ineptitude in this organization that is rampant from ownership, to GM, to coaches, why would ANYONE want to stay in Miami?  From Day One, not only has this team not done anything to help Tua succeed, they have seemingly sabotaged him and shown zero confidence in him (and thereby preventing him from gaining any confidence in himself) and done everything possible to prevent him from succeeding. 

^^^ THIS

[Dolfanalyst]

To the extent that someone can be proven conclusively wrong in their assessment of a player, you were proven absolutely wrong about Tannehill.  The player that TEN received from MIA, when given a competent supporting cast, was FAR superior to any MIA QB of the last 20 years... and it's not even close.  Meanwhile, your argument against Tannehill from the start was that his play had little to do with the players around him... a point you are now using to dismiss his improvement.

Your attempts to downplay and deny Tannehill's high level of play in TEN just expose how committed you have been to disparaging him.  Essentially, even if he had had the same kind of season in MIA - one in which he leads the league in several efficiency metrics - you STILL would have been trashing him.

It's difficult to imagine that your credibility on the subject of QBs can be reduced even further, but you're making an impressive attempt to do so.

If you (or anyone else) would like to continue to discuss this I'd be happy to do it backchannel, as discussions about a former Dolphins QB are off-topic.  Alternatively, if a moderator would like to sanction such a discussion by starting a thread on it, I'd be happy to discuss it there as well.

[Dolfanalyst]

The Cardinals absolutely supported Rosen right up until they didn't. He got a full season and some prior to dealing with it.

"...head coach Kliff Kingsbury reportedly confirmed it to Rosen only one minute before the pick was made."

"Hey, so we're about to draft Kyler," Kingsbury reportedly told Rosen on the phone. "...I don't really know what happens now." They traded Rosen the day after drafting a QB. 

What exactly do you see as constituting a lack of support for Tua that distinguishes it from the above example?  Players throughout the league know they're capable of being replaced at any time, due to various factors.

[Downunder Dolphan]

Grier finally came out this morning and supported Tua while saying 90 percent of the rumors were false. He said given the chance again he would have had better communication with Tua.

I don't think Tua is dumb and I know his agent isn't. Look for him to try and get into a better position at year's end and ask for a trade.

Grier actually said this? This is basically confirmation that he and Flores have lost the team, and there's no way they should survive after this season.

[Downunder Dolphan]

Consider that for the past season and a half, the departure of one player took the New England Patriots and arguably the greatest head coach in history from a 20-year dynasty to merely the average level.  That one player went to a team with a 7-9 record the previous year and immediately won a Super Bowl with it, while he enjoys a top record in the league with it again this year.

It's very difficult to appraise the effectiveness of head coaches in the league unless and until they have a quarterback that enables them to be competitive.  The game just revolves too much around quarterback play to permit anything else.

Only thing is you are talking about a truly elite QB that is a once in a generation thing (or maybe three in this generation).

Brady, Manning and Rodgers all have/had the knack of consistently making receivers that look pretty ordinary elsewhere look like stars for way over a decade. The rest aren't remotely in that same league. 

[Spider-Dan]

If you (or anyone else) would like to continue to discuss this I'd be happy to do it backchannel, as discussions about a former Dolphins QB are off-topic.  Alternatively, if a moderator would like to sanction such a discussion by starting a thread on it, I'd be happy to discuss it there as well.

Anyone may start a thread in Around The NFL to talk about any players on other NFL teams.

[Dolfanalyst]

Anyone may start a thread in Around The NFL to talk about any players on other NFL teams.

It sounds like you have an interest in doing that regarding Tannehill, so go ahead and start the thread.