Ricky Williams vs. Jonathan Martin

[dolphins4life]

I noticed Dave's post about Ricky Williams

It's very interesting.  Nobody has responded to it, but nobody has disagreed with it either.

However, the consensus on this board is that Jonathan Martin, who also suffered from mental illnesses, was just a wimp.

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site. 

Is this because Ricky had great talent, and Martin did not have any talent? 

Martin had to deal with being intimidated into giving money away to his teammates, and direct threats from a mentally deranged teammate. 

Ricky, to my knowledge, never experienced that.

[Spider-Dan]

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site.

This is a terrible post.

[dolphins4life]

This is a terrible post.

How is it a terrible post?  It makes a legitimate point. 

I have suffered mental health issues my entire life.  I have been stigmatized for it, too.

I know what Martin went through, and I DO NOT THINK HE IS A WIMP.

[ArtieChokePhin]

How is it a terrible post?  It makes a legitimate point. 

I have suffered mental health issues my entire life.  I have been stigmatized for it, too.

I know what Martin went through, and I DO NOT THINK HE IS A WIMP.

It's a terrible post because you're not the sole person who was on Martin's side.   

[Dolphster]

I noticed Dave's post about Ricky Williams

It's very interesting.  Nobody has responded to it, but nobody has disagreed with it either.

However, the consensus on this board is that Jonathan Martin, who also suffered from mental illnesses, was just a wimp.

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site. 

Is this because Ricky had great talent, and Martin did not have any talent? 

Martin had to deal with being intimidated into giving money away to his teammates, and direct threats from a mentally deranged teammate. 

Ricky, to my knowledge, never experienced that.

You answered your own question.  Although society often display empathy or sympathy towards the mentally ill (or in Martin's case, mental illness combined with being a "wimp"), society as a general rule has much more empathy or sympathy towards the talented (or those viewed as winners) than towards those who "did not have any talent" (those perceived as losers).   By no means am I defending this, I'm just stating it as a fact.  Do people have more empathy for a mentally ill homeless person or more empathy for a war hero who has PTSD?   By no means am I comparing Martin to a homeless person nor Ricky Williams to a war hero, but the same principle applies.  With or without mental illness, society always favors the talented over the untalented. 

[ArtieChokePhin]

You answered your own question.  Although society often display empathy or sympathy towards the mentally ill (or in Martin's case, mental illness combined with being a "wimp"), society as a general rule has much more empathy or sympathy towards the talented (or those viewed as winners) than towards those who "did not have any talent" (those perceived as losers).   By no means am I defending this, I'm just stating it as a fact.  Do people have more empathy for a mentally ill homeless person or more empathy for a war hero who has PTSD?   By no means am I comparing Martin to a homeless person nor Ricky Williams to a war hero, but the same principle applies.  With or without mental illness, society always favors the talented over the untalented. 

And Incognito was talented while Martin not so much.   But that doesn't excuse Incognito strong-arming Martin out of $15k for a trip Martin didn't want to go on.

[Dolphster]

And Incognito was talented while Martin not so much.   But that doesn't excuse Incognito strong-arming Martin out of $15k for a trip Martin didn't want to go on.

Oh, absolutely.  I will admit that all along I've had more empathy for Incognito than Martin in that situation.  But by no means does that mean that I found Incognito's actions to be "okay" or excusable. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I have suffered mental health issues my entire life. 

Thanks for confirming, but we all figured that out on our own.

[stinkfish]

Incognito was a problem. I loved the football player Incognito, but as a human he's just trash. I remember reading a few pieces about him and seeing him for what he really was. A very big, intimidating,  talented racist, and misogynistic bully.

[Dolphster]

Incognito was a problem. I loved the football player Incognito, but as a human he's just trash. I remember reading a few pieces about him and seeing him for what he really was. A very big, intimidating,  talented racist, and misogynistic bully.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on him too.

[dolphins4life]

It's a terrible post because you're not the sole person who was on Martin's side.   

On this site I certainly was.   

[dolphins4life]

Oh, absolutely.  I will admit that all along I've had more empathy for Incognito than Martin in that situation.  But by no means does that mean that I found Incognito's actions to be "okay" or excusable. 

This is self-contradictory to the nth degree. 

UNLESS, and I have an open mind so if there is more to the story, let me know.

Did Martin do anything to incite Incognito?  From my understanding, he was struggling to perform well on the field, and that's what led to Incognito and everybody else ganging up on him

[Downunder Dolphan]

Incognito was a problem. I loved the football player Incognito, but as a human he's just trash. I remember reading a few pieces about him and seeing him for what he really was. A very big, intimidating, talented racist, and misogynistic bully.

A lot of Incognito's football "talent" was based on sucking his opponents in and dragging them down to his own level.

Unfortunately Miami was a worst case scenario where he also did that to our own lineman (Martin was not the only one). He needed a bigger bully as a coach to stop him getting out of control, and instead we had pathetic Philbin. We really did end up with a psycho running the asylum, and I couldn't wait for us to be rid of him.

I had a fair bit of sympathy for Jonathan Martin to start with, less so as the saga and his actions lingered on. It's an awful chapter I think most people want to forget about TBH.

[Dolphster]

This is self-contradictory to the nth degree.  

UNLESS, and I have an open mind so if there is more to the story, let me know.

Did Martin do anything to incite Incognito?  From my understanding, he was struggling to perform well on the field, and that's what led to Incognito and everybody else ganging up on him

It isn't the least bit contradictory.  This was the prototypical bully versus sissy scenario.   Incognito is the very definition of a bully.  Martin was soft emotionally and physically.  Martin had no business being on an NFL team because NFL players (especially the bullies) eat soft people up and spit them out.  And that is exactly what happened.  Martin was in WAY over his head in the NFL.  Did he do anything to incite Incognito?  Not in the traditional sense of picking a fight.  But he incited the exact reaction that soft people get in the NFL from bullies.  He was essentially a sissy.   As the Dolphins' self proclaimed enforcer, Incognito appointed himself as the guy to weed out the soft sissies who wouldn't be able to cut it on the Offensive Line.  And he was 100% successful at it.  Incognito has had how many years in the NFL now?  How many years did Martin have?     Does that make what Incognito right or acceptable?  Of course not.   But life is hard.  Life in the NFL is harder.  The weak get chased down and eaten by the predators.  Martin was weak. Incognito was a predator.   Incognito is an asshole and a despicable human being.  And he is in the one profession where being an asshole and a despicable human being is acceptable and in some cases, desirable.    You are always fond of saying "winning is all that matters".    If you actually believe that, then you should have no problem with what Incognito did.  He weeded out someone weak who would have added zero to the odds of the Dolphins winning.   So which do you actually believe?   Is winning all that matters or does good character count?  It is one or the other.  And the bigger question is how did the Dolphins do such a shitty job of researching Martin before the draft that they were unable to uncover the fact that Martin was so soft?   I want a nice, respectable guy to marry my daughter.  I want a nasty, eye gouging, mean motherfucker protecting my Quarterback.  Offensive linemen don't do toothpaste commercials flashing their pearly whites and they don't pluck their eyebrows.  The eyebrow plucking is saved for the Kickers.  

I'm trying to think of a way to phrase this so I don't get scolded by the mods.  D4L, you are probably a nice kid in real life.  But I don't think you have a lot of maturity, or life experience regarding how the real world works and you don't know a lot about football and both of those things kind of bite you in the butt on here pretty often. 

[dolphins4life]

So if that's the case, why do you say Incognito's actions were not defensible or excusable?  It seems like you are saying they were.