Ricky Williams vs. Jonathan Martin

[Dolphster]

So if that's the case, why do you say Incognito's actions were not defensible or excusable?  It seems like you are saying they were.

I can see where that might look contradictory I guess.  I think Stinkfish put it pretty well when he said that he loved Incognito as a football player but thought he was trash as a human being.  In the microcosm of putting the Dolphins in the position of having the best offensive line that would put them in the best position to win football games, I found his actions excusable and understandable.   In the grand scheme of life and being a decent human being, I found his actions to be indefensible.  It is a fine line, and I can understand someone thinking it looks like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth on the topic. 

[bsmooth]

I noticed Dave's post about Ricky Williams

It's very interesting.  Nobody has responded to it, but nobody has disagreed with it either.

However, the consensus on this board is that Jonathan Martin, who also suffered from mental illnesses, was just a wimp.

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site. 

Is this because Ricky had great talent, and Martin did not have any talent? 

Martin had to deal with being intimidated into giving money away to his teammates, and direct threats from a mentally deranged teammate. 

Ricky, to my knowledge, never experienced that.

The difference is very easy to understand. Both men had some form of mental health issues. Both men had enough talent to be able to be considered to be an NFL player.
However only one of these two men managed to craft a career in the NFL in spite of their mental health issues. The other one quit, not once, but twice, from NFL teams within stao years.
So even though he had Martin had a couple teammates being dickheads to him, he didn't face the pressure of trying to carry a franchise that Williams did when he was drafted, on top of his mental health issues

Being a lineman is similar to being in a combat arms unit in the military. You have to have mental and physical toughness or your fellow players/soldiers will hound you to get out. You need people you can count on to help carry the load and fight through the pain and adversity to win. The military would punish people who admitted they had mental health issues and needed help as well.

[dolphins4life]

then what Incognito did was fine.

You can't have it both ways in this situation

[Spider-Dan]

On this site I certainly was.  

On THIS site, you had N O T H I N G to say about Martin in any of the MULTIPLE threads discussing the incident when it went down.  The only thing you had to say about that event in 2013 was:

idk how much an effect the Martin scandal had on the team

You have absolutely no idea of who here took what sides and why.
But years later you want to act like you were the only defender?  FOH

[Pappy13]

Martin had to deal with being intimidated into giving money away to his teammates...

This is a distortion of the truth. The fact is that he gave the money away freely but then decided not to go with the other players and wanted the money returned and was refused because the money had already been spent. If this causes you mental anguish you're not a wimp you're simply immature.

[bsmooth]

then what Incognito did was fine.

You can't have it both ways in this situation

Congrats on using two fallacies.
1. You have moved the goal posts as you original post was about your perception of how the mental health issues of Williams and Martin were handled. That has nothing to do with Incognito did or said
2. This is not an either or fallacy. There are mtiple ways to view the situation. Incognito's behavior has little to do with how the pubic or members of this board view the issues that Williams and Martin had

Whether you want to admit it or not, Martin had a plethora of options available to him as a grown man to overcome the issues he had with Incognito. The route Martin took is perceived by many as the least desired path. Personally I think he should have stood up to Richie, first by saying no to paying for something, and secondly verbally or even physically if that is what it took. Richie is a dick that will only respect strength.

You sure don't seem to be expressing much sympathy towards Williams's mental health issues he dealt with as much as you are trying to make this thread about you.

[Dave Gray]

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site. 

This is verifiably false.

You know, d4l, you bring up some interesting topics on occasion that would garner discussion, but so often they're draped in a ridiculous false premise that you get shouted down before anyone can share ideas.

There's a discussion to be had about the legacy of bullygate, for sure, but you most certainly weren't outspoken in support of Martin on this site.  And other people were.  So, to frame it that you were his sole protector, is, frankly, some bullshit.

[Dolphster]

This is verifiably false.

You know, d4l, you bring up some interesting topics on occasion that would garner discussion, but so often they're draped in a ridiculous false premise that you get shouted down before anyone can share ideas.

There's a discussion to be had about the legacy of bullygate, for sure, but you most certainly weren't outspoken in support of Martin on this site.  And other people were.  So, to frame it that you were his sole protector, is, frankly, some bullshit.

Indeed.  I think the legacy of bullygate combined with a conversation about how the "moral code" of the NFL is so vastly different from the "workplace etiquette" of almost every other career is something that could lead to a very interesting conversation here.   But to drape it in a ridiculous false premise as you pointed out ruins any chance of a good discussion.  That would be akin to saying, "Let's compare and contrast the leadership styles and political philosophies of Donald Trump and Joe Biden.  I shall make the first comment.  Joe Biden is a senile old house plant that hates America and sniffs the hair of little girls like a pedophile.  Discuss."     LOL   That is essentially what D4L does whenever he offers up a worthy topic and drapes it in ridiculousness before it even has a chance to get it off the ground. 

And D4L, if what Spider and Dave said is true about you not having said much of anything in Martin's defense back when all this went down and now you are claiming to be the only one here who was on Martin's side back then.......well that is a true douchenozzle liar stunt to pull and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Not being knowledgeable is one thing. Intentionally lying is something completely different. 

[Tenshot13]

That would be akin to saying, "Let's compare and contrast the leadership styles and political philosophies of Donald Trump and Joe Biden.  I shall make the first comment.  Joe Biden is a senile old house plant that hates America and sniffs the hair of little girls like a pedophile.  Discuss."     LOL   That is essentially what D4L does whenever he offers up a worthy topic and drapes it in ridiculousness before it even has a chance to get it off the ground. 

I'm waiting for the ridiculousness, seems pretty accurate 

[pondwater]

I'm waiting for the ridiculousness, seems pretty accurate 

And so it begins, LMFAO....

[Dolphster]

I'm waiting for the ridiculousness, seems pretty accurate 

LOL, I see what you did there.  And believe me, I have some very strong negative opinions about both Biden and Trump.   But the ridiculousness I was referring to meant that none of those comments about Biden had anything to do with comparing and contrasting the leadership styles or political philosophies of him and Trump.  I was reframing what D4L is famous for in here.   

[Dave Gray]

Looking back on Bullygate, I think

1) The Dolphins had weak leadership and were ill-equipped to handle that situation (and others), thus they deferred to Incognito and let the inmates run the asylum.
2) Incognito was a meathead, but set up to fail by the organization, because he wasn't properly trained as a coach to motivate his teammates and there was no oversight for his bad behavior.  He is to blame, but he really shouldn't have been put in that position anyway.
3) Martin had some mental issues, but I'm not gonna sit here and diagnose the man.  He may have been able to succeed in an environment that recognized that and helped him overcome it, but I don't think we have any way of knowing that one way or the other.  I think the same is true of Incognito -- he may have been able to have been a strong leader if guided properly -- we'll never know.

Martin also seemed to not be a stellar player and Incognito was pretty good, so I guess that's why fans, other players, and coaches sorta just looked the other way.

[Dolphster]

I think you summed it up pretty well there, Dave.  The only thing I would add is something that I just explained to D4L in a private message.  The NFL (and to a lesser degree the military) is a testosterone fueled, knuckle dragging organizational culture for the most part.  What is perceived as weakness, be that mental/emotional weakness or physical weakness (softness) on a football team is considered poisonous to the goal of winning football games.   I'm not saying I think that is a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying it is the way that it is.   If other players (especially old school mentality players) think a teammate is weak and that they are going to hurt the chances of winning ballgames, the weak sort of become the wounded prey and the self appointed enforcers like Incognito become the predator.   With the intent to drive the weak player off the team one way or another.  And often, coaches look the other way like Philbin did because they buy into that same mentality.  They look at harassing the weak as "making them tougher".   Honestly, I think if the media hadn't found out what was going on and blowing the story up in the press, the Dolphins would have been content to just look the other way until Martin either toughened up or was cut for failing to do so.   The NFL is so unique that you can't take standard corporate culture expectations such as supporting those who are struggling, common courtesy, professionalism and try to apply them to the NFL.  They are worlds apart.  The ultimate apples and oranges comparison. 

[masterfins]

Incognito was a problem. I loved the football player Incognito, but as a human he's just trash. I remember reading a few pieces about him and seeing him for what he really was. A very big, intimidating,  talented racist, and misogynistic bully.

I think it was even more than that, IMO Incognito had his own mental health issues.  If you review his college and professional career, and based on my thousands of hours watching television, I think he could be partially diagnosed as psychotic, among other issues.

[Dolphster]

I think it was even more than that, IMO Incognito had his own mental health issues.  If you review his college and professional career, and based on my thousands of hours watching television, I think he could be partially diagnosed as psychotic, among other issues.

I think that whole blowup he had at the funeral home pretty much sealed the deal on him being a nut job.