Brian Flores Suing NY Giants and Maybe the Whole League Over Hiring Process

[Dave Gray]

I don't know the motivations, but both things can be true.  The NFL can have shitty hiring practices for African Americans.  It's also possible that Flores only brought these facts up when he could use it to his advantage.

You don't have to have integrity to be right about something.

[CF DolFan]

You don't have to have integrity to be right about something.

That's absolutely true. But he said because of his integrity he had to speak up but based on his actions it looks like he is a liar first and foremost. I don't doubt there is some truth to his claims I just doubt his integrity and think revenge is his actual motivation. Like I said previously the guy could have elevated any number of black assistants yet he kept hiring white guys to lead. That goes directly against what he says is the problem as well. What he says and what he does is conflicting at best.

[Spider-Dan]

I get what you're saying but if "integrity" is your reasoning behind why you came forward then you will be questioned for playing along in the game unitl you were released.

The first time it happens isn't a pattern.

When Flores was interviewed by DEN and Elway was allegedly drunk, it's easy to chalk that up to one case of bad management.  Flores' argument is that the actions of Elway, Ross, and Mara combined indicate a larger problem with the system as a whole, instead of just one bad apple.

[Spider-Dan]

What happens when diversity clashes with who are actually considered the best candidates by the teams. You can't hire minorities just to say you hired minorities. The actual results on the field are what matters. People point out that ex players aren't represented enough in NFL coaching.

More specifically: that ex-players are selected as coaches far less in the NFL than they are in MLB or the NHL, two sports with a much higher percentage of white players.

But as noted earlier, playing doesn't equate to coaching. In fact, most coaches have previous experience coaching and start in college or shortly thereafter as assistants to actual coaches and work their way up over the years.

And by "work your way up over the years," you mean "spend exactly one year coaching in the college ranks before landing an NFL coaching job."

And as far as I can tell, more white people go into coaching earlier. Whereas black people go into playing earlier and work their way up over the years. That is why black people are over represented as players.

They are two different career paths that are determined by actual individual choices which results in experience. Common sense would dictate that most of the time most teams are going to hire the person with more experience doing the job that they are applying for. Who seems more likely to land a coaching job? Someone who has been at some level of coaching for 10-15 years or someone who played football for 10-15 years?

This neglects to consider that there are also many black college football players who don't make it to the NFL.  Yet these players are NOT placed on the coaching fast track, then hired by NFL teams less than two years out of college.

If you reverse the situation, I don't see many ex coaches being hired as players.

Given that age is a factor in the ability to play, this point doesn't even make sense.

[CF DolFan]

More specifically: that ex-players are selected as coaches far less in the NFL than they are in MLB or the NHL, two sports with a much higher percentage of white players.

I have to wonder how many even want to coach? Not attacking black coaches but if you look at the history of their tenures they have selected white coaches to help them lead. I find it really hard to belive that they purposely overlooked "qualified" minority coaches in favor of a white guy. The truth, at least to me, is that they selected the assistant coaches based on who they thought could help them win. Our current coach wasn't selected because he had a former playing carreer. He came in as an intern and worked his way up and earned a reputation as a coach. As a matter of fact that's how out GM came in as well. Nothing was given to either of them.

I think we are looking at the problem backwards. We don't need to be looking at the number of coaches until you start filling the bottom with qualified interns. To me sports is the all around even ground for people because I belive that rarely is someone promoted or held back based on their color. It has way more to do with what you can do to help me win. As white kids with "Karen" mothers continue to pull their boys out of football you will see an even greater discrepancy in the league but that doesn't mean you will see more black coaches unless you start seeing more minority interns. Hell ... Dan Marino was one of the best ever but based on what people have said he'd make a terrible coach.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

until you start filling the bottom with qualified interns.

Agreed.  The problem isn’t just at the head coaching ranks but the entire pipeline.  There needs to be more minorities and women hired as interns so they can be promoted up the ranks.

And I have seen racism at the high school sports level.  Not the out and out exclusion type but best athlete on the team is black, second best is white. The black player is a significantly more accurate passer.  White player is slightly faster.  Both can catch the ball.  Both want to play QB.  Best passer on the team plays  WR, fastest player is QB.


If not for racism the better passer would be qb and the faster runner would be a wr.  But alas the QB is the face of the team and in my community we can’t have the face of the team wearing dreadlocks.

Take a look at most little league teams.  Ever notice there are more minorities in the outfield than on  the mound. There are just enough minority pitchers for people to deny the problem, but statistically it is impossible that on that many teams so many of the best pitchers are all white.

[CF DolFan]

Agreed.  The problem isn’t just at the head coaching ranks but the entire pipeline.  There needs to be more minorities and women hired as interns so they can be promoted up the ranks.

And I have seen racism at the high school sports level.  Not the out and out exclusion type but best athlete on the team is black, second best is white. The black player is a significantly more accurate passer.  White player is slightly faster.  Both can catch the ball.  Both want to play QB.  Best passer on the team plays  WR, fastest player is QB.


If not for racism the better passer would be qb and the faster runner would be a wr.  But alas the QB is the face of the team and in my community we can’t have the face of the team wearing dreadlocks.

Take a look at most little league teams.  Ever notice there are more minorities in the outfield than on  the mound. There are just enough minority pitchers for people to deny the problem, but statistically it is impossible that on that many teams so many of the best pitchers are all white.

It's not neccesarily a race issue. Different coaches have different priorities see what they can get out of a QB. Kind of funny but we had two QBs in school. Many (including blacks) thought the white guy was the better QB but the black guy won out and the white guy became a reciever. The black guy went on to have a fourteen-year career in the NFL. He amassed 21,711 passing yards, with 134 touchdown passes, and 99 interceptions. He also ran for 2,027 career rushing yards and 14 touchdowns while making 100 career starts. The white guy owns a drilling company. hahaha

[Dave Gray]

Agreed.  The problem isn’t just at the head coaching ranks but the entire pipeline.  There needs to be more minorities and women hired as interns so they can be promoted up the ranks.

For better or worse, this is what the Rooney Rule is trying to accomplish.

[Spider-Dan]

I have to wonder how many even want to coach?

My initial thought is that football players wouldn't be any less likely to go into coaching than baseball or hockey players.  Hockey, in particular, seems like a really good analog.

Not attacking black coaches but if you look at the history of their tenures they have selected white coaches to help them lead. I find it really hard to belive that they purposely overlooked "qualified" minority coaches in favor of a white guy. The truth, at least to me, is that they selected the assistant coaches based on who they thought could help them win.

Like I said in the other thread, without knowing how many different minority assistant coaches they hired, I can't comment on this with confidence.  If they had white coordinators but have a diverse staff of assistant coaches, then they're trying to fill the pipeline so that a larger number of qualified coaches are available for promotions in the future.  I don't know if they did.

Our current coach wasn't selected because he had a former playing carreer. He came in as an intern and worked his way up and earned a reputation as a coach. As a matter of fact that's how out GM came in as well. Nothing was given to either of them. [...]

To me sports is the all around even ground for people because I belive that rarely is someone promoted or held back based on their color.

This is a good point and something I want to address in another thread after all the head coaching spots are filled.  I think it's true for players, but not so much for coaches.

[pondwater]

More specifically: that ex-players are selected as coaches far less in the NFL than they are in MLB or the NHL, two sports with a much higher percentage of white players.

We're talking about football, specifically the NFL.

And by "work your way up over the years,"you mean

I mean like:

Mike Tomlin who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in college in 1995 and entered NFL coaching in 2001. 6 year transition.

Andy Reid who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1982 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1992. 10 year transition.

Dennis Green who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1972 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1979. 7 year transition.

John Harbaugh who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1984 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1998. 14 year transition.

Lovie Smith who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1983 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1996. 13 year transition.

Bruce Arians who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1975 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1989. 14 year transition

David Culley who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1978 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1994. 16 year transition.

Pete Carroll who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1973 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1984. 11 year transition.

Romeo Crennel who worked his way up the coaching ranks starting in 1970 in college and entered NFL coaching in 1981. 11 year transition.

"spend exactly one year coaching in the college ranks before landing an NFL coaching job."

The information above directly contridicts your assertaitions. As a side note, even if that was true, which it's not. It's an extra year of coaching experience added to a resume for a job that mainly requires experience. And extra year experience that a player doesn't have.

This neglects to consider that there are also many black college football players who don't make it to the NFL.  Yet these players are NOT placed on the coaching fast track, then hired by NFL teams less than two years out of college.

So players who wash out should be put on a fast track when they could have went straight into coaching to begin with if that's what they wanted to do? Normally if your career path doesn't work out, you don't just get to skip ahead in line when you change paths.

Given that age is a factor in the ability to play, this point doesn't even make sense.

Of course it makes sense. So you're saying they're too old after saying that they "spend exactly one year coaching in the college ranks". How old are they after coaching for one year at the college ranks? Let's take a look...

Mike Tomlin 23 years old in 1995.

Andy Reid 24 years old in 1982.

Dennis Green 23 years old in 1972.

John Harbaugh 22 years old in 1984.

Lovie Smith 25 years old in 1983.

Bruce Arians 23 years old in 1975.

David Culley 23 years old in 1978.

Pete Carroll 22 years old in 1973.

Romeo Crennel 23 years old in 1970.

Math is math, the percentage of black coaches in the NFL is comparable to the black population of the country. That's equality

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

For better or worse, this is what the Rooney Rule is trying to accomplish.

The revised one is.  I support it.