Do you support Israel or Hamas?

[CF DolFan]

I recently saw a poll that only 38% of Democrats support Israel which is a historic low. I've also seen Democratic Socialists like Sarah Silverman has dropped their party affiliation and call them out because of their support of what Hamas has done. Since most of you in here are Progressive Democrats it has me wondering where everyone stands?

[Fau Teixeira]

I support not killing people.

Like most things in life, there's a ton of nuance in the title and people think in absolutes. So i'll try my best here.

Hamas is horrible and the human species would be better off if they didn't exist.

Hamas uses palestinian civilians as human shields and puts Israel in an unwinnable position when it comes to  retaliation. Palestinians could stop this from happening by dealing with Hamas internally but lets face it, that's not realistic.

Israel sucks for their ongoing apartheid regime that contributes to the rise of extremists within what is realistically a big impoverished prison camp.

Israel and Hamas are in a tit for tat that they've been in for decades. One side escalates, the other side retaliates. As always civilians are caught in the middle, which is horrible. Everyone's an asshole here.

[Dave Gray]

This situation is so bad.

I think, like most things, this is nuance.

First off, Hamas is the worst and they deserve everything coming to them.  Their actions are inexcusable and it's full-stop terrorism that has to be fully beaten back.


That said, I also think that the Palestinian people within Gaza are suffering inside what is essentially a prison camp.  Israel is part of that problem.
It doesn't excuse their actions, but it's also fair to recognize that this is a monster that is, at least partially created and radicalized because of Israel's treatment towards them and their lack of hope and options.

It's similar to 9/11.  It was a terrorist attack that was terrible on every level.  It's also fair to look at the US's involvement in the Middle East and reflect on whether or not our choices there are creating an environment for terrorists to attack us.  Both things can be and are true.

Israel has a right to defend itself and fight terrorism.  It is not right, however, to reactionarily attack a civilian population as an act of retribution.

So, yes -- I support Israel's right to defend itself.  I don't think it's prudent to indiscriminately genocide a people for it, though.

[Dave Gray]

By the way, I'm seeing a lot of people on threads that see this as a completely black and white issue where if you aren't in full 100% lockstep, that you get blocked and ignored.

I don't think that's healthy.

I also think that there are bad actors, antisemites, and opportunists intentionally misinforming and simplifying this conflict into an either/or that it isn't.

[Dave Gray]

Oh and one more thing --

It's totally the case where you can agree with a person or group on one thing and then find that that same person or group is completely out of step or misinformed on another issue.

Suffragettes were some of the biggest racists in our history, for example.  They were right on women's rights and that came at a cost to their views on race.   ...singularly focused.

So, in this case, I see some BLM activists are on the wrong side of things and you have to disassociate.  As a progressive, you have to filter through it and let cooler heads prevail.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fox-news-poll-voters-overwhelmingly-side-with-israelis-in-ongoing-conflict-with-palestinians/ar-AA1i3RO6

From Fox and the very first search result.

You and the rest of MAGAs desire to destroy America through misinformation is sick and perverted. 

[pondwater]

YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fox-news-poll-voters-overwhelmingly-side-with-israelis-in-ongoing-conflict-with-palestinians/ar-AA1i3RO6

From Fox and the very first search result.

You and the rest of MAGAs desire to destroy America through misinformation is sick and perverted. 

LMFAO. Who exactly is lying? And why are you so emotional?

[Denver2]

I support neither side just the people who will be caught in the middle and people around the world who will be victims on the terror wave that will follow the Israeli response.

[masterfins]

I support Hamas ZERO Percent, and I support Israel about 50%.  If Hamas wants to be-head babies and burn children alive then they need to be wiped off the face of the earth.

[CF DolFan]

YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fox-news-poll-voters-overwhelmingly-side-with-israelis-in-ongoing-conflict-with-palestinians/ar-AA1i3RO6

From Fox and the very first search result.

You and the rest of MAGAs desire to destroy America through misinformation is sick and perverted. 

Dramatic much? Hahaha I sometimes wonder  if you're actually a female and just hormonal because you can be pretty irrational. The poll I saw was before the latest event.

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- After a decade in which Democrats have shown increasing affinity toward the Palestinians, their sympathies in the Middle East now lie more with the Palestinians than the Israelis, 49% versus 38%.[/i]
https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx


Another poll, a Fox News survey conducted Saturday through Monday, also found similar divisions by party and age. The poll showed greater support for Israel — it did not offer respondents the option of saying they sided with both groups equally — but majorities or near-majorities of Democrats (59 percent) and voters under 35 (49 percent) said they sided more with the Israelis in “the Middle East conflict,” far fewer than Republicans (79 percent) or voters 65 and older (82 percent).

And a Morning Consult poll conducted Tuesday through Thursday also found a wide party split, with Republicans about twice as likely to say they sympathize more with Israelis than Democrats.

The trend among Democrats and younger Americans has been clear over the past few years. A Gallup poll earlier this year — before the war — found support had reached a tipping point: For the first time in Gallup’s 20-plus-year trendline, more Democrats sympathized with Palestinians than Israelis, driven in large part by the younger elements of the party’s membership.

The rapidity of the movement was striking. Democrats sided with the Israelis by a 30-point margin in 2016 — a 41-point margin swing in just seven years.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/12/democrats-generational-divide-remains-as-israel-battles-hamas-00121307#:~:text=In%20the%20new%20Economist%2FYouGov,driving%20the%20split%20among%20Democrats.

[Dave Gray]

I have a serious question, not meant to incite anything.

But what does it mean to "support Israel"?

I see that is the rallying cry but I don't know what that means.  Is it asking is Israel should exist?  Is it giving them a free pass?




Like, I support America.  But we do dumb shit all the time.  So I'm not really sure what supporting Israel entails.

[CF DolFan]

This situation is so bad.

I think, like most things, this is nuance.

First off, Hamas is the worst and they deserve everything coming to them.  Their actions are inexcusable and it's full-stop terrorism that has to be fully beaten back.


That said, I also think that the Palestinian people within Gaza are suffering inside what is essentially a prison camp.  Israel is part of that problem.
It doesn't excuse their actions, but it's also fair to recognize that this is a monster that is, at least partially created and radicalized because of Israel's treatment towards them and their lack of hope and options.

It's similar to 9/11.  It was a terrorist attack that was terrible on every level.  It's also fair to look at the US's involvement in the Middle East and reflect on whether or not our choices there are creating an environment for terrorists to attack us.  Both things can be and are true.

Israel has a right to defend itself and fight terrorism.  It is not right, however, to reactionarily attack a civilian population as an act of retribution.

So, yes -- I support Israel's right to defend itself.  I don't think it's prudent to indiscriminately genocide a people for it, though.

I agree a lot with you and Fau but I also don't think Israel is as bad as the media wants you to believe. I've said this before but a lot of my views are based on a coworker I had who has passed. He was a Muslim Engineer who was born in France, raised in Egypt, and lived in Africa. He spoke 7 different languages and was seemingly a nice guy. We spent countless hours debating the bible and Koran. he even gave me an English Koran to read which I did. He hated Jews with a passion. In fact he easily admitted that killing kids in night clubs and basically what Hamas just did was justifiable. Unless you got to know him you would have never known this side of him but his hatred was evil and Biblical. It had nothing to do with what was really going on.  

The same people beheading their own people in Iraq are running Hamas and Palestinians are caught in the middle because they hide and support them. They aren't all innocent in this either or else they would be trying to get rid of Hamas too.  

Regardless of what you see in the media Palestinians in Israel are freer than they would be in any Arab country. They are just under Jewish government and act like that is so horrible. They just do stuff like this so Israel expands control just as America would if Mexico or Canada attacked. the way I see it Palestinians have two options. They can live peacefully with Israel and help to get rid of the extremists or they can do nothing and suffer as is what's happening now.

[CF DolFan]

I have a serious question, not meant to incite anything.

But what does it mean to "support Israel"?

I see that is the rallying cry but I don't know what that means.  Is it asking is Israel should exist?  Is it giving them a free pass?




Like, I support America.  But we do dumb shit all the time.  So I'm not really sure what supporting Israel entails.

I would guess that means something different to everyone just like most things political.

[Dave Gray]

I also don't think Israel is as bad as the media wants you to believe.

I don't know what you're seeing, but I don't see any media outlets anywhere doing anything but fully condemning Hamas and sympathizing with Israel at every turn.  There are a few democrats in small districts that are providing nuance, but they're being beaten back by their own party and supporters.  I don't see any mainstream criticism of Israel, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

Funny enough, the only narrative I see being critical of Israel is Trump.  His issue seems to be a more personal beef with Netanyahu but I heard him kinda blaming the lack of preparedness by Israel as part of the cause.  He was blasted by both the left and right for that.



This has been a hard issue for me to track.  I am pretty good at sniffing out propaganda bullshit, but with this issue, and with religion and thousands of years of conflict at the heart of it, it's hard to trust fact-based reporting.  The stuff I'm seeing online seems to be a hard-line, black and white support of Israel or those blaming Israel and focusing on the things they've done over the years to stoke the fire.  Even those that I follow on social media that are generally politically like-minded seem to have lost their heads over this particular issue.

It's whataboutism and sensationalism all over the place.  And then you have your shitty people who are intentionally making it worse.

I have a few good sources that I trust, but this continues to be a tough issue to sort through.

[pondwater]

I have a serious question, not meant to incite anything.

But what does it mean to "support Israel"?

I see that is the rallying cry but I don't know what that means.  Is it asking is Israel should exist?  Is it giving them a free pass?




Like, I support America.  But we do dumb shit all the time.  So I'm not really sure what supporting Israel entails.

Do you support Russia or Ukraine? What does it mean to support Ukraine? It's basically the same thing.

And for the record, I think Israel should once and for all put an end to Hamas and absorb the land. And I think Russia should do the same with Ukraine. In both cases as quickly as possible.