Trump Trial

[Dave Gray]

I didn't want to derail the other thread, but I have to push back on some things that CF said.

First off, his assertion that his "liberal friends" are telling him that there was no evidence just doesn't hold water.  I'm very into this.  I listen to legal podcasts about the trial, I keep up with the details.  ...and even though it's not the same, I work at a law firm, so I kinda understand a bit how evidence works and more than that, how "what seems right" or how bravado doesn't count or doesn't matter when you're dealing with the legal system.

Anyway, this was an open and shut case.  If you paid attention, the prosecution made their case with all of their witnesses, all friends and colleagues of Trump, under oath, claiming they were working under his orders.  It was corroborated by both written documentation, as well as Trump's signature on the checks themselves.  And while Trump isn't required to mount a defense, he chose not to.  He didn't take the stand to refute anything.  He didn't call any witnesses that offered a dispute of anything said or a different account of any of the testimony.

Then, (not that it matters, because he lies all the time), Trump came out and lied about a bunch of things in front of the court house.   He said that it was a Biden DOJ thing, when in fact, it was a State matter and the Biden DOJ specifically turned down the case.  He also said that "he wasn't allowed to use advice of counsel" which is a lie.  The judge specifically asked if they were going to use "advice of counsel" defense and his attorneys said "No."

The only thing that was unclear was whether or not it would be a hung jury because someone on the panel felt that because he was president, that those laws shouldn't apply to him.  Any one of us who did what he did would have been found guilty, and it's not close.

Also, I think the conservative brain-worm is eating away at these pundits who say that this helps Trump.  Y'all are nuts if you think that 34 felony convictions by a jury of peers, in addition to other juries finding him civilly liable for sexual assault and defamation are going to help him.  That's some crazy 4D chess.

Lastly, I'm personally disappointed in you, CF.  I think that you know that this man is a scumbag and a danger to the country and that you lied (maybe to me, maybe to yourself) that you weren't going to vote for him.  But you always were.  It was a foregone conclusion and you were just waiting for the moment to drop the charade.  Apparently, getting found guilty of 34 felonies by a unanimous group of random people, approved by his own legal team is all the proof that you need that he's right for the job.  What a joke.

[CF DolFan]

I honestly don't care if you guys believe me when i speak about people I know. It's pretty obvious how left many of you guys are and being biased is just a starting point. The so called jury based evidence off of known liars, who admittedly wanted to see him burn. There wasn't physical evidence to corroborate with their stories. Either way, guilty as he may be, he is being railroaded like no other President. Any of which could be arrested for crimes. I saw a poll today that says Trump got a bump in polls as well as up to 22% of people polled said they were now voting for him and previously wasn't ... like myself. I believe I'm in good company.  

[Fau Teixeira]

just to be clear, i saw a picture of a check signed by trump, wouldn't that be physical evidence of a payment ?

Financial crimes are crimes, period end of sentence.

I AM a liberal, and I very much dislike Trump, and I'm incredibly biased. All that being said, I didn't make him fuck a pron star, pay her off in a shady ass way and then lie about it committing felonies in the process. If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime.

Also, this whole "change of venue" issue is bullshit, if you didn't want to be tried in manhattan, don't commit a crime in manhattan, DUH.

[Dave Gray]

I honestly don't care if you guys believe me when i speak about people I know.

It's not a matter of believing you.  I think that you have a tendency to believe bullshit.  So you know a bunch of people that died from the vaccine or people that tell you that they're liberals.  No liberals think Trump got railroaded by this trial.  That's bullshit and you're a sucker if someone is telling you that.  You're getting taken for a ride by someone who is posturing something that they're not, so that you'll think that their testimony has more credibility.  Or you're thinking someone is a liberal when they don't think of themself as one.

[Sunstroke]

Trump's 34 Felony convictions = just a start.

And amen for that...

[Dave Gray]

I think it also matters that he was held universally liable in his other trial, too.  Once you take away all the bluster and bullshit and posturing and "rigged" and all the bloviating garbage and blaming the prosecutor and his own attorneys and the judge, he is guilty on the facts.  Sworn testimony, physical evidence, nobody testifying in his defense.

He's guilty about the documents.  He's guilty about the election interference.  He's guilty with the fake electors scheme.

On the merits, when you take away his ability to turn everything into a circus, he's always guilty on the merits, across multiple trials, and with more to come.

[Spider-Dan]

Trump's former attorney Michael Cohen was charged by Trump's DOJ and got 3 years for his part in this exact same crime.

The idea that Trump is innocent is laughable.  Even Trump himself doesn't deny that during the 2016 presidential campaign, he paid off a pornstar under the table to silence her after cheating on his wife.  He just claims that isn't a crime (note: it is a crime).

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I honestly don't care if you guys believe me when i speak about people I know. It's pretty obvious how left many of you guys are and being biased is just a starting point. The so called jury based evidence off of known liars, who admittedly wanted to see him burn. There wasn't physical evidence to corroborate with their stories. Either way, guilty as he may be, he is being railroaded like no other President. Any of which could be arrested for crimes. I saw a poll today that says Trump got a bump in polls as well as up to 22% of people polled said they were now voting for him and previously wasn't ... like myself. I believe I'm in good company.  

Where did you see that 22% of the population went from not supporting Trump to supporting Trump because of the conviction?  Because that contradicts what I have seen from both right and left leaning outlets.

Also why are so many of Trump’s former supporters and employees liars that are out to get him?

[Dave Gray]

I have seen that 6% of Trump leaning voters said that they would potentially drop off.  (Which I don't even believe, because I think these supporters are craven and would be embarrassed to admit that they'd vote for a convicted felon in an open poll, especially if they thought he was going to get off.)

Anti-Trumpers switching to Trump because he's a felon is conservative brainworm.

[CF DolFan]

Where did you see that 22% of the population went from not supporting Trump to supporting Trump because of the conviction?  Because that contradicts what I have seen from both right and left leaning outlets.

Also why are so many of Trump’s former supporters and employees liars that are out to get him?

From a 2 day Reuters/Ipsos poll

Of registered Republicans, 35 percent said Trump’s guilty verdict made it more likely they’d vote for him. 18 percent of independents said the same


J.L. Partners polled 403 likely voters immediately after Thursday's guilty verdict to assess its impact on the November election. The results suggest a slight bump for Trump

[Spider-Dan]

Of registered Republicans, 35 percent said Trump’s guilty verdict made it more likely they’d vote for him. 18 percent of independents said the same

Or phrased differently: 65% of Republicans and 82% of independents are not "more likely" to vote for the felon after his conviction.

[Pappy13]

The so called jury based evidence off of known liars, who admittedly wanted to see him burn.

You mean like every other criminal ever? Show me a person who says they have never lied and I'll show you a liar. Besides their testimony was corroborated by physical evidence and by testimony of people who showed no ill will towards Trump whatsoever. The testimony of accomplices to a crime is trial 101.

Here's a small list of former Trump associates that have been charged or convicted of crimes. At this point you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that knows Trump that hasn't been charged or convicted of a crime.

Paul Manafort - Trump's former campaign chairman, convicted of tax and bank fraud.
Michael Cohen - Trump's former personal lawyer, convicted of campaign finance violations and lying to Congress.
Roger Stone - A longtime adviser, convicted of obstruction, making false statements, and witness tampering.
Michael Flynn - Former national security adviser, convicted of lying to the FBI.
Rick Gates - Former deputy campaign chairman, convicted of conspiracy and lying to investigators.
George Papadopoulos - Campaign adviser, convicted of lying to the FBI.
George Nader - Informal adviser, convicted of child pornography and sex trafficking.
Steve Bannon - Former chief strategist, charged with fraud related to a fundraising campaign.

[Dave Gray]

^ It's worth mentioning that in most of those cases, the people plead guilty, as well.

[CF DolFan]

You mean like every other criminal ever? Show me a person who says they have never lied and I'll show you a liar. Besides their testimony was corroborated by physical evidence and by testimony of people who showed no ill will towards Trump whatsoever. The testimony of accomplices to a crime is trial 101.

Here's a small list of former Trump associates that have been charged or convicted of crimes. At this point you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that knows Trump that hasn't been charged or convicted of a crime.

Paul Manafort - Trump's former campaign chairman, convicted of tax and bank fraud.
Michael Cohen - Trump's former personal lawyer, convicted of campaign finance violations and lying to Congress.
Roger Stone - A longtime adviser, convicted of obstruction, making false statements, and witness tampering.
Michael Flynn - Former national security adviser, convicted of lying to the FBI.
Rick Gates - Former deputy campaign chairman, convicted of conspiracy and lying to investigators.
George Papadopoulos - Campaign adviser, convicted of lying to the FBI.
George Nader - Informal adviser, convicted of child pornography and sex trafficking.
Steve Bannon - Former chief strategist, charged with fraud related to a fundraising campaign.

You seriously comparing a guy who admits his opinion can be bought to people who tell white lies? Also ... not sure why you are quoting Trump's associates as they weren't witnesses. Lastly ... I couldn't give 2 chits about Trump's acquittances. I know he is a piece of crap so why would I care? We are talking about the credibility of the witness. The funny part to me is if he suddenly backed Trump you'd quickly admit he ws in a class of his own when it comes to lying. Hahaha

[Pappy13]

You seriously comparing a guy who admits his opinion can be bought to people who tell white lies?

Not exactly. I'm saying that because someone has lied in the past doesn't mean they are lieing now. I'm also saying that if there is corraborating evidence that someone is in fact telling the truth now and was lieing earlier to avoid criminal charges being filed against him, there's good reason to believe that he is telling the truth now even though he's lied in the past regarding that very same thing.

Also ... not sure why you are quoting Trump's associates as they weren't witnesses.

My point is that we can't limit those who can testify against trump to only people who have never been accused of a crime or convicted of a crime because so many people in Trump's inner circle don't meet that criteria. If we did that then there would be no one left to testify against Trump. We HAVE to use people accused of or committed crimes because they are the only ones that Trump associates with. If you are going after a mob boss, you have to rely on mob members to testify against him, that's just the nature of the beast. Yes I am comparing the Trump inner circle to the mafia because there are a lot of similarities.

We are talking about the credibility of the witness.

Exactly. So why don't you care? I'm not prejudging the man, I'm actually looking at this much more objectively than you are and not relying merely on Michael Cohen's or anyone else testimony for that matter but rather ALL of the evidence presented and seeing what makes the most sense to me. That's what the jury members are supposed to do. Every jury, regardless of who is on trial and who is testifying.