If Biden were to step aside and Kamala Harris were the Democratic nominee

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't think Biden dropping out helps the democrats and could potentially hurt them significantly.  If Biden steps aside Harris doesn't automatically become the nominee.  It will become a floor fight at the convention.  AOC will almost certainly get some delegates, so will Porter, and Newsom and Hillary and Sanders and Whitmer and Beshear maybe even Warren. 

Now we have a fight that could fracture a party that is pretty unified in defeating Trump.

If Biden and team decides that he doesn't have enough in him for another four years, he can retire on Jan 20th.  Immediately after Harris is sworn in as VP. 

[Brian Fein]

It seems to me that the concern isn't whether or not Biden can do the job - he has been doing it for 3+ years.

The concern, for me, is if the outward perception of incoherence AT ONE DEBATE is enough to sway the election toward Trump.  There is no question that Trump is primed to destroy the country and its nearly-300-years of history to favor himself.  It is a grave scenario.  So the Democrats need to pull out everything they can to defeat him in the election.  Because the "yeah but he's old" independent voters will sway the other way.

And to Spider's point, Trumps mental decline is well documented but he doesn't have to be mentally sharp when the guy across the aisle speaks with a stutter with no bass in his voice.  The only thing that matters is outward appearance and voter perception.

[Spider-Dan]

And to Spider's point, Trumps mental decline is well documented but he doesn't have to be mentally sharp when the guy across the aisle speaks with a stutter with no bass in his voice.

I believe that the goal of the Biden campaign (and the Democratic Party more broadly) should be to make this proposition explicit.  People like Dave imply that all this is about mental sharpness when it's actually about who is speaking more forcefully, because Trump has been confidently and forcefully saying absolutely nonsense for months.

And when I say "absolute nonsense," I don't mean stuff like injecting disinfectant to cure disease or George Washington invading airports.  Everyone already knows Trump's a moron; that IS actually baked in to the comparison.  I'm specifically talking about Trump forgetting that he's running against Biden instead of Obama, or forgetting that Nikki Haley was the governor of SC and not the speaker of the House, or thinking Kim Jong Un is in charge of China.  Those are things that Trump knows, but forgot because he's old.  And those are the types of things that the Biden campaign should hammer relentlessly until the NY Times and the rest of the quasi-centrist media gives up on this "Biden is senile" angle.

So if you want to vote on who talks tougher then that's a choice, but let's be clear that that's the choice we're discussing, not mental fitness.

[Dave Gray]

You keep saying “grow a spine” but I’m not sure what that means

I don’t think Joe Biden is fit to be president.  What’s that have to do with a spine?

[Spider-Dan]

I have been happy with the Biden presidency.  Very much so, in fact.

[...]

Trump is a clear and present danger to democracy, so whatever it takes to beat that back, do it.  But after what I saw at that debate, I can't say that Biden is the best person to take that on.

I feel like I'm being asked to ignore what my eyes are seeing, which is that the person who I support isn't able to fully do the job.  Even though I'm happy with many parts of his administration and am very happy with the accomplishments, communicating confidence to the American people is a portion of that job and in that regard, he gets an F-.

As a progressive, if I think that, I know that swing voters think that.  We are potentially marching into a slaughter.

When you say that you "no longer believe Biden can do the job," you aren't saying that based, in any way, on the job he is doing as president.  Because you love the job he's doing as president!

No, you're saying it because, for one 90-minute debate, he looked old and forgetful.  And based on that one debate and literally nothing else - no part whatsoever of his performance in the office of President - you've decided that "we are marching into a slaughter" so Biden must be replaced.

What I'm trying to tell you is that this capitulation and appeasement won't work.  It will, in fact, make things worse in every regard, from the media feeding frenzy on the collapse of the Biden campaign, to the VP newly taking on the entirety of the Oval Office while also trying to run for President.

So maybe instead of wetting our pants over what is literally a bad debate performance, for an office in which bad debaters regularly win, perhaps a bit of intestinal fortitude is warranted.  Even on his best day, Trump is far less mentally fit than Biden... yet his supporters would never consider abandoning the race because Trump shit the bed in one debate (or all of them).

The question before us, Dave, is not whether Biden is the best person to be running the country.  The question is, was, and will remain:

Is Joe Biden a better choice to run the country than Donald Trump?

You might want it to be a different question, but it's not.  And, just like voting for a third-party, attempts to change the question will only make the outcome worse.

[Dave Gray]

I am happy with the things that he and his cabinet of workers have provided from when he was elected to present.  So, on the results, he's been great.  I do not have confidence that he will continue to be great.  Also, this makes me question how directly involved he is in the day to day and it scares me to think of what might happen if he was called to a crisis in the evening.

He is older that he was when he took office and now that same person appears not to be able to string together a sentence.  Time exists.  People age.  Biden can't talk.

Yes, Biden is a better choice to run the country than Trump.

But EVEN BETTER THAN THAT is if Biden quits or dies and we have a person that can run the country better than Trump AND that can talk and form thoughts after 9PM.

It takes a lot to call that simply a bad debate performance.  The man couldn't create sentences. Jesus fucking Christ, man.  I am getting gaslit as if I didn't watch a old person who was sundowning right before our eyes.  On threads, the excuses are insane.  It's the media.  He had a cold.  It's a stutter.  The moderators didn't do enough.  Today, it was because his something to do with his mic.


The. Man. Cannot. Speak.

[Dave Gray]

I am really shocked by all of this.

You're going to support running a candidate that cannot talk or form thoughts in front of 50 million people and then when he loses by 8 points, you're going to blame people like me for not pretending I didn't see it.

[Spider-Dan]

But EVEN BETTER THAN THAT is if Biden quits or dies and we have a person that can run the country better than Trump AND that can talk and form thoughts after 9PM.

Dave, what happens if Biden dies tomorrow?
And, on a somewhat related note, who do you think should replace Biden on the ballot?

If it's the same person, what are we even talking about here?

You're going to support running a candidate that cannot talk or form thoughts in front of 50 million people and then when he loses by 8 points, you're going to blame people like me for not pretending I didn't see it.

In 2000 and 2016, I watched certain groups of people on the left scream "Democrats are running a terrible candidate" for months, and then act surprised when others on the left blamed them for successfully convincing voters of their message.

You have agency for your own actions.  You can spend the next four months insisting that Biden is senile while ignoring Trump's daily unhinged statements; that's up to you.  I choose to focus my energy on pointing out that the 34-time felon who committed hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud, tried to overthrow our democracy, and promises to become a dictator if he wins... is also quite forgetful when he's not outright lying.

And just to reinforce the point here: you are not talking about anything of substance.  You have no issue with how he has carried out his job as President, and the only person who can logically replace him if he drops out is the same person who will automatically replace him if he becomes physically unable to continue.  The only reason for Biden to drop out (and resign?) is you think it will help in the polls.  And not only is there no reason to believe that's true, there's plenty of evidence to believe it's false.

The most recent precedent for replacing someone on the presidential ticket this late in the cycle is the 1972 Democratic ticket, a blowout loss.
The most recent precedent for an elderly incumbent president with questions about his declining mental fitness - questions that were later proven to be well-founded! - was the 1984 Republican ticket, a blowout win.

[Spider-Dan]

One more thing:

I see this discussion as a difference in election strategy.  An incredibly significant and consequential difference, to be sure, but ultimately a question over what helps win the election.  And I think you're trying to artificially boost the gravity of your position on election strategy by saying stuff like "it scares me to think of what might happen if he was called to a crisis in the evening," while simultaneously conceding that you have absolutely no objection to the manner in which Biden has fulfilled his job duties as president.

This is unnecessary and counterproductive.  You should probably stop trying to "win the argument" by fearmongering about whether the republic is safe with Sleepy Joe at the helm.

[Dave Gray]

Dave, what happens if Biden dies tomorrow?

I'm not sure what this question is for, short of Socratic method, but I think we both know that Harris becomes president.

And, on a somewhat related note, who do you think should replace Biden on the ballot?

I think the easiest choice is Harris, because she already would have access to the funds.  But also, I think she's the choice that would have the least in-fighting, has already been fully vetted, etc.



Your strategy is having the opposite effect on me than you might expect.  I don't like being told how to think.  I thought Biden was too old 4 years ago and I was vocal about it.  Now, that's super apparent, after I watched him put his sundowner's disease on full display, and then somehow I'm called spineless for saying the things that I see with my own eyes.

We have a limited opportunity to win this election by not picking a person who is clearly mentally unfit.  It doesn't mean that I don't respect what he's done or that he wouldn't be better than someone who is also mentally unwell but also actively trying to destroy our democracy.  But I won't pretend it's all well and good.

Biden isn't fit to lead.  Trump is going to lead us in the opposite direction.

If you want to talk about it being bad election strategy, fine.  Make that point and maybe you're right.  But don't try to convince me that I didn't see an old man who couldn't fucking function for 90 minutes and I cringed every time he moved or opened his mouth.  And I'm his base!!!!!  Imagine those who need to be convinced still.

mod edit: fixed broken tag

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Dave--Are you really so naive as to think that if Biden was to step aside that Harris would get the nomination at the convention without a floor fight.

[Denver2]

I don’t think Biden has dementia but that’s what it looked like at the debate and that’s all that matters is perception.

Fascism doesn’t deal in truth it deals in looking strong and making your opponent look weak and Trump did that.

I think Biden stepping down now is too late and the replacement would likely lose, but Biden is going to lose. I see no way he can salvage this.

It’s h fair because he’s been a great president but this is where we are.

[Dave Gray]

Dave--Are you really so naive as to think that if Biden was to step aside that Harris would get the nomination at the convention without a floor fight.

I think that if she were already in office that there would be no momentum for a floor fight.  And that other viable candidates wouldn't want the job, anyway.

But I also don't care.

I just think you lose the moral high-ground to run someone who isn't capable.



I don't want to be like the MAGA crowd.  This is our Jan 6th.  We saw it, so we can't pretend that it was something it wasn't.  I'm not interested in talking myself into thinking that was OK.  I don't have loyalty towards one man.  I don't owe anyone anything and even though I'm happy about the accomplishments, it's clear to me that he isn't all there mentally.  It isn't a sports team that I have to support no matter what.  I can' put the toothpaste back in the tube.

There is an opportunity to make a change, this is the moment to do it, so I think that we should.


If you want to argue that Biden is the best chance to win, I'll listen to you.  But I don't like being told that he is fine and that was just a bad performance.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I think that if she were already in office that there would be no momentum for a floor fight.  And that other viable candidates wouldn't want the job, anyway.

But I also don't care.

I just think you lose the moral high-ground to run someone who isn't capable.



I don't want to be like the MAGA crowd.  This is our Jan 6th.  We saw it, so we can't pretend that it was something it wasn't.  I'm not interested in talking myself into thinking that was OK.  I don't have loyalty towards one man.  I don't owe anyone anything and even though I'm happy about the accomplishments, it's clear to me that he isn't all there mentally.  It isn't a sports team that I have to support no matter what.  I can' put the toothpaste back in the tube.

There is an opportunity to make a change, this is the moment to do it, so I think that we should.


If you want to argue that Biden is the best chance to win, I'll listen to you.  But I don't like being told that he is fine and that was just a bad performance.

1. You are living in a fantasy world if you think "the democrats" can just replace Biden, he would need to choose to step aside.

2. I would be surprised if the delegates to the democratic convention would choose Harris.  Harris is a right leaning moderate who is general despised by most progressives.  The delegates are left leaning progressives.  Being a delegate is a reward for being an active volunteer in the democratic party, these folks generally aren't moderates.  And my fear isn't a viable candidate challenging Harris but a non-viable one, and there is a very decent change that if the delegates choose the nominee they might pick AOC.  And then we get Trump. 

Your thinking of demanding perfection from the democratic candidate plays right into the hands of the Republicans and is the exact dynamic that lost the dems in both 2000 and 2016

And make no mistake about it you are demanding perfection,  Biden has always had a stuttering problem and has been a gaffe machine, he had ONE bad debate,  If ONE bad debate disqualifies you are demanding absolute perfection. 

[Dave Gray]

1. You are living in a fantasy world if you think "the democrats" can just replace Biden, he would need to choose to step aside.

I am aware of the logistics.  I am in the camp that he should step aside.  Those in power (and those not) can apply pressure.  I'm afraid we are drawing dead.  We were behind and needed to gain voters.  We did the opposite.  There is an opportunity now, but it won't last for long.

There's a reason that you aren't hearing anything from those on the right.  They don't want Biden to step aside because they know he's so much easier to beat.

2. I would be surprised if the delegates to the democratic convention would choose Harris.  Harris is a right leaning moderate who is general despised by most progressives.  The delegates are left leaning progressives.  Being a delegate is a reward for being an active volunteer in the democratic party, these folks generally aren't moderates.  And my fear isn't a viable candidate challenging Harris but a non-viable one, and there is a very decent change that if the delegates choose the nominee they might pick AOC.  And then we get Trump.

I don't think this is reasonable.  If Harris is the party choice, I think she'll have the support.  But even if they picked AOC at the convention, AOC isn't doing that.  You'd have to have a candidate willing to run.  And if we do that, we lose.  It will take a series of good decisions.  But sticking with the person you believe cannot win is the first bad decision.  It's just not a winning strategy.

Your thinking of demanding perfection from the democratic candidate plays right into the hands of the Republicans and is the exact dynamic that lost the dems in both 2000 and 2016

And make no mistake about it you are demanding perfection,  Biden has always had a stuttering problem and has been a gaffe machine, he had ONE bad debate,  If ONE bad debate disqualifies you are demanding absolute perfection. 

I think you're in denial.  I am not asking for perfection.  This isn't stuttering.  Did you watch the debate?  I refuse to be gaslit.  He had a stutter 4 years ago.  This is inability to communicate and I think it's much worse.  He reminds me of my Dad.  He had good days and bad days, but you needed to catch him at his best in the morning.

Look, man....we are on the same side of this, but I think we've been lied to.  They've been covering him up.  There's a reason why the administration hasn't been able to tout their accomplishments, because they don't trust their messenger.  They've been hiding Biden for a long time.  Who knows how long this has been going on?  It's right in front of your face.  We saw him act a doddering old fool and I'm just not going to make excuses for that.