If Biden were to step aside and Kamala Harris were the Democratic nominee

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

  We were behind and needed to gain voters.  We did the opposite.  There is an opportunity now, but it won't last for long.

His debate performance didn't cost him any votes  But the continued questioning of his fitness by DEMOCRATS will almost certainly cost him the election.   . 

[Dave Gray]

I hope you're right.  I will personally do the best if Biden wins --- I have a pretty good amount of money on him, in addition to us not devolving into a fascist hellhole.

I am afraid you're already fit to blame his loss by those of us who voted for him, but refused to lie on his behalf.

If he's going to lose because I'm calling him out on his lack of fitness, maybe I'm not the problem; maybe it's his lack of fitness.

[Dave Gray]

His debate performance didn't cost him any votes

From NY Times:

"Mr. Trump now leads Mr. Biden 49 percent to 43 percent among likely voters nationally, a three-point swing toward the Republican from just a week earlier, before the debate. It is the largest lead Mr. Trump has recorded in a Times/Siena poll since 2015. Mr. Trump leads by even more among registered voters, 49 percent to 41 percent."

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

From NY Times:

"Mr. Trump now leads Mr. Biden 49 percent to 43 percent among likely voters nationally, a three-point swing toward the Republican from just a week earlier, before the debate. It is the largest lead Mr. Trump has recorded in a Times/Siena poll since 2015. Mr. Trump leads by even more among registered voters, 49 percent to 41 percent."

And how many of that 3 point swing consisted of people who watched the debate and changed their support because of the actual debate and how many heard that democrats were considering replacing Biden?

[Dave Gray]

I don't know; what's the difference?

I would imagine that a lot of people saw that debate and thought that they couldn't vote for a person who was unable to form thoughts, but that's just me... 

Maybe the polls are wrong.  Maybe it's the mainstream media.  Maybe it's bad microphones.  Maybe Joe had a cold.  Maybe Trump was talking with his mic off and it was distracting.  Maybe Joe's stutter was acting up.  Maybe it was a bad night.  Maybe he took the bait.  Maybe it's the other Dems in the party.   Or maybe, just maybe the Emperor has no clothes.

[Dave Gray]

Maybe this is generational.  I am getting a ton of pushback from (presumably) younger people than me online.  But in my day to day life, the conversations I've had with my similarly aged friends, family, and coworkers have been pretty much the same.

To your point, none of them have told me that they're not voting or that they're switching to Trump.  But they all think that Biden is cooked.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't know; what's the difference?

The difference is huge,  Almost zero undecided voters watch a presidential debate in JUNE,  The audience was almost entirely committed supporters of one or the other. 

But what the undecided voters saw was democrats saying Biden needs to be replaced, when what they should have been seeing from their democratic friends is all the lies Trump spewed

[Denver2]

I am aware of the logistics.  I am in the camp that he should step aside.  Those in power (and those not) can apply pressure.  I'm afraid we are drawing dead.  We were behind and needed to gain voters.  We did the opposite.  There is an opportunity now, but it won't last for long.

There's a reason that you aren't hearing anything from those on the right.  They don't want Biden to step aside because they know he's so much easier to beat.

I don't think this is reasonable.  If Harris is the party choice, I think she'll have the support.  But even if they picked AOC at the convention, AOC isn't doing that.  You'd have to have a candidate willing to run.  And if we do that, we lose.  It will take a series of good decisions.  But sticking with the person you believe cannot win is the first bad decision.  It's just not a winning strategy.

I think you're in denial.  I am not asking for perfection.  This isn't stuttering.  Did you watch the debate?  I refuse to be gaslit.  He had a stutter 4 years ago.  This is inability to communicate and I think it's much worse.  He reminds me of my Dad.  He had good days and bad days, but you needed to catch him at his best in the morning.

Look, man....we are on the same side of this, but I think we've been lied to.  They've been covering him up.  There's a reason why the administration hasn't been able to tout their accomplishments, because they don't trust their messenger.  They've been hiding Biden for a long time.  Who knows how long this has been going on?  It's right in front of your face.  We saw him act a doddering old fool and I'm just not going to make excuses for that.

Yeah the “window” of him being the best is worrisome and dementia patients often get worse at night and whether he does or he doesn’t have dementia that awful debate looked like he did.

It was sad to watch and I had to start heavy drinking to squash the panic attack I was having when I realized what was unfolding.

I think it’s possible he may have had a stroke sometime in the last 4 years and that’s been covered up.

I don’t know. I never thought he had dementia before the debate, I thought all the chatter was just republican lies and chatter. All I saw was an older man who was never a great speaker or very charismatic that’s why he lost every other time he ran for president.

But quite often during that debate he looked like either a dementia patient or a stroke victim and there i don’t see any way he can win at this point, unless the old dog has the pee tape or the slur tape and is waiting to leak them.


I wish Biden would have pledged one term to begin with, we would have had a healthy primary and a nominee who would beat Trump in a landslide, instead we are on the verge of handing the country over to a vengeful petty little wanna be dictator who himself is likely suffering dementia or syphilis madness who is backed by handmaid tales style theocrats

[Spider-Dan]

Your strategy is having the opposite effect on me than you might expect.  I don't like being told how to think.

OK, fine.  I won't tell you how to think.  In fact, I'll let you tell me how to think:

I thought Biden was too old 4 years ago and I was vocal about it.  Now, that's super apparent, after I watched him put his sundowner's disease on full display, and then somehow I'm called spineless for saying the things that I see with my own eyes.

OK, so four years ago, you were convinced Biden was too old to do the job, but Democratic primary voters ignored you (and those who agreed with you) by nominating Biden, who won.  And your job evaluation of Biden's performance?

"I have been happy with the Biden presidency.  Very much so, in fact."
"I'm happy with many parts of his administration and am very happy with the accomplishments [...]"
"I am happy with the things that he and his cabinet of workers have provided from when he was elected to present.  So, on the results, he's been great."

This means one of two things:

a) Four years ago when you vocally insisted that Biden was too old to do the job, you were wrong and Biden has competently executed his charge
b) Four years ago when you vocally insisted that Biden was too old to do the job, you were right, but the team he put around himself has been covering (quite effectively!) for him

If the former, your ability to evaluate Biden's age as it relates to his job competency has been proven to be poor.
If the latter, Biden's mental state is irrelevant, as he did a great job in spite of your accurate assessment.

But don't try to convince me that I didn't see an old man who couldn't fucking function for 90 minutes and I cringed every time he moved or opened his mouth.

Let us stipulate that you have accurately assessed Biden's lack of mental fitness, and that he is incapable of functioning at the level a normal adult.  If this has been the case for some time, and you have been "very happy" with the outcome, then why are you calling this "our Jan 6th"?  It's the status quo, which you wildly approve of!

Is your argument here that Biden has been of sound mind for the last 40 months and just now fell to pieces at the debate?  If not, then why isn't the same political/government apparatus that has been propping up Biden for some indeterminate time worth voting for?  Your own evaluation of the performance of Biden's team is that they are doing a great job.  So why shouldn't you - why aren't you - convincing people to vote for it, instead of desperately trying to convince people that it's not worth voting for?

Dave, I'm granting you all of your Biden premises.  Even if every assessment of Biden you have is true and accurate, there is a very straightforward argument to make for re-electing the same administration that YOU BELIEVE has been very successful.  You choose not to take that approach.  I don't know whether you're trying to get some sort of "I told you so" moment from four years ago, or what... but it is counterproductive to the goals you profess.

[Spider-Dan]

From NY Times:

"Mr. Trump now leads Mr. Biden 49 percent to 43 percent among likely voters nationally, a three-point swing toward the Republican from just a week earlier, before the debate. It is the largest lead Mr. Trump has recorded in a Times/Siena poll since 2015. Mr. Trump leads by even more among registered voters, 49 percent to 41 percent."

In July of 1988, a Gallup poll showed Democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis leading George H.W. Bush (then the incumbent vice president) by 17 percentage points.

As you recall, Bush ended up not only winning the election but in a relative landslide (by 8 percentage points in the national popular vote and carrying 41 states).

It's July.  Polls change.

And not for nothing, but on this same date in 2016, Hillary led Trump by five-and-a-half points, with that lead growing to seven-and-a-half points by August.  Of course, the difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans understand winning elections is more important than being able to say "I told you so" after the candidate you didn't want loses.

[Brian Fein]

Two things:
1) Curious to Dave's response - If Joe Biden gets up in another debate and speaks with authority, makes clear points, and debates like he did 20 years ago in the Senate, would that change your mind?
(FWIW, I only remember one specific instance of him not being able to finish his thought while searching for words.  Aside from that instance, the outward perception of the "soft voice" was what got me.  Which, if he had a cold, is a plausible condition.)

2) The more publicity Project 2025 gets, the worse it looks for Trump.  In fact, Trump realizes this, as he is trying to distance himself from the whole notion.  But we all know that he only sees that as bad for him electorally, but once in office, his tune wil change.
 

[Dave Gray]

Two things:
1) Curious to Dave's response - If Joe Biden gets up in another debate and speaks with authority, makes clear points, and debates like he did 20 years ago in the Senate, would that change your mind?

This is a fair question, and that's kinda my whole point.  The answer is "no".  This isn't fixable.  Maybe it's my relationship with my Dad, but I saw what it was like to have him slip and have spaced out moments.  It doesn't mean that some other moment days later wouldn't be great.  You have good moments and bad moments.

Look, I'm not a doctor, but what I saw wasn't a bad performance.  It was like some kind of medical episode.  Once that happened, my opinion of the situation has changed.  I think that it's best that he step aside.


To Spider,

I think more than one thing can be true at a time.  I thought Biden was too old 4 years ago.  I stand by that.  I still think he is too old and I still think he was too old.  He was the best option in front of me, so it's the one I supported, but I still don't think he's as good as he should be.

I also think it's fair to change your thinking when you get new information.  All this time, the opposition has been telling us that Joe is a puppet and he's out to lunch.  I dismissed it.  But after that episode on TV, I think there may be something to that.  Maybe he has a good staff and it's Weekend At Biden's in the White House.  I just don't know.

Also, we haven't had a big crisis -- what if that terrible call comes in the middle of the night and he's doing whatever he was doing during that debate?

Being a president is about leadership, not just in the laws you help enact, but in how you carry yourself, represent your country, instill confidence, tout your accomplishments, and bring others to your cause.  Yes, I'm happy with the stuff they've gotten done, but not in the other stuff.

I'm going to try to make this simple.  You don't have to believe these things, but understand that I do and you can't browbeat me out of my feelings with a point-by-point rebuttal.

1) I now am confident that Joe Biden is not mentally cogent at all hours of the day.
2) I feel that having a president that is not mentally cogent is not acceptable.


None of this means that Trump is better.  But we have an opportunity now to not be like them.  I am not going to be Blue MAGA.  We can force a change of our candidate when we see something wrong with him, when they refused to do so.    Or at least we can call a spade a spade.  I also have a separate belief that doing so gives us a better chance to win the general election.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, we haven't had a big crisis -- what if that terrible call comes in the middle of the night and he's doing whatever he was doing during that debate?

What is the definition of a "big crisis" in this context?  Biden took office during the biggest crisis in 75 years, and handled it admirably.  Since then, we have dealt with the aftermath of an attempted government coup, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the unprecedented Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, and Israel's genocidal response in Gaza.

I ask you again because you didn't answer: do you believe that Biden has been of sound mind for the last 40 months and just now fell to pieces at the debate?

One more thing [re: can a better debate fix this?]:

This is a fair question, and that's kinda my whole point.  The answer is "no".  This isn't fixable.

Can a medical evaluation by a certified professional convince you otherwise, or is this literally about that one debate and nothing else?

"I know better than medical professionals based on my common sense" would sound like a version of MAGA to me.

[Dave Gray]

What is the definition of a "big crisis" in this context?

I don't know...invasion or something like that???  The old "who do you want answering the phone" question from the 1980s.  I don't want him answering the phone.

I ask you again because you didn't answer: do you believe that Biden has been of sound mind for the last 40 months and just now fell to pieces at the debate?

I don't know.  My guess is that he's probably been slipping for a while but has been kept away from the public at his most vulnerable times.  Maybe he did fall to pieces at the debate and that was the worst of it.  Whatever the case, what I saw was not acceptable from what I expect from leadership.

One more thing [re: can a better debate fix this?]:
Can a medical evaluation by a certified professional convince you otherwise, or is this literally about that one debate and nothing else?

"I know better than medical professionals based on my common sense" would sound like a version of MAGA to me.

Sure, a medical evaluation would make me feel better, I guess.  But probably not all the way better.  Even if he was tip-top (which I don't believe he is), I think that 82 years old is too old to take on a new term.  Whatever was going on at that debate with him -- I don't want the President of the US having that happen to them.  Whether that was senility or a stroke or he got distracted by the lights....whatever it was, wasn't good.  For me, my confidence in him is no longer there.  I don't believe I trust the sources that would try to convince me otherwise, because it appears that they may have been complicit in hiding it from me in the first place.

[Spider-Dan]

If you've made up your mind and can't be convinced otherwise no matter what, it is what it is.  I'd hope that you would refrain from trying to convince people to stay home instead of voting for Biden, but I realize "I told you so" is a powerful motivator.

I would like you to consider that 8 years ago, people saw this video and decided that Hillary clearly had Parkinson's and was medically unfit to be President.

I disagree with you about Biden's mental state, but even if I agreed with you, I believe that the administration he has in place has proven competent and effective in the most challenging term since I was born.  To reject and discard (what we both agree has been) a proven-effective administration based solely on bad vibes from a debate is a take I cannot get on board with.

Bernie Sanders suffered a heart attack while on the campaign trail in 2019, and you've never expressed as pessimistic of a view about his health as you currently are about Biden; if Biden had suffered a heart attack on stage, I think you would be calling for his resignation right now.  Like much of the media, I think you are using this event as a sort of vindication of your previous "Biden is too old" takes.