Does Bill Cowher...suck?

[jtex316]

Similar to the "Does Tony Dungy...suck?", i would like another good debate on Bill Cowher.

Bill Cowher is another guy who has had a long history of playoff gags.  He made one Super Bowl, which he lost, and is 1-4 all-time in AFC Title Games (i think).  He has also lost an inordenate amount of home playoff games, including last year where the Steelers went 15-1.

As a sidebar, in BOTH games, Jerome Bettis had a fumble.  Last year it was costly, this year it would have been costly, but it turned out they got VERY lucky.

I think the Steelers are the luckiest team in the last 10 years to be still alive in the playoffs.  Sure, the Jerome Bettis 1-yard line fumble, while resembling "The Fumble" by Earnest Byner in 1987, was a complete fluke (or was it?), it just seems like a Bill Cowher coached team always has this kinda stuff happen to him at the most crucial times.

This year, IMO, it looks as if Cohwer is righting his own ship, winning 2 playoff games (tough road games).  I can't blame him if he loses next week @ Denver, because that team is playing good football.  Or can I?  Will something happen where the Steelers will "lock up" and "choke" the game away to the Broncos??

Your thoughts.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Similar to the "Does Tony Dungy...suck?", i would like another good debate on Bill Cowher.

Bill Cowher is another guy who has had a long history of playoff gags.  He made one Super Bowl, which he lost, and is 1-4 all-time in AFC Title Games (i think).  He has also lost an inordenate amount of home playoff games, including last year where the Steelers went 15-1.

As a sidebar, in BOTH games, Jerome Bettis had a fumble.  Last year it was costly, this year it would have been costly, but it turned out they got VERY lucky.

I think the Steelers are the luckiest team in the last 10 years to be still alive in the playoffs.  Sure, the Jerome Bettis 1-yard line fumble, while resembling "The Fumble" by Earnest Byner in 1987, was a complete fluke (or was it?), it just seems like a Bill Cowher coached team always has this kinda stuff happen to him at the most crucial times.

This year, IMO, it looks as if Cohwer is righting his own ship, winning 2 playoff games (tough road games).  I can't blame him if he loses next week @ Denver, because that team is playing good football.  Or can I?  Will something happen where the Steelers will "lock up" and "choke" the game away to the Broncos??

Your thoughts.

Another good point.  Keep in mind that all of Cowher's AFC Title games were played at Three Rivers Stadium/Heinz Field.  This one being at Mile High will be a little different.  

I wouldn't blame Bettis's fumble entirely on him.  They had just taken over on downs at the Indy 2.  I would've taken a knee three times, and forced Indy to use their timeouts, pinning them deep in their territory with seconds to play and no timeouts.  Instead what unfolded looked like a scene from Night of the Living Dead for the Steelers.  Cowher should be very lucky... that missed kick probably saved his job.  If Indy had gone on to win the game, both him and his OC would've been sent packing.  I've seen many a good coach get fired for making stupid calls like that one whcih end up costing games.   The most intriguing example was in December 1978 when the Eagles beat the Giants in the Meadowlands after Larry Csonka fumbled on a running play and Herman Edwards scooped up the ball and took it in for the winning TD.  All the Giants had to do was fall on the ball.  The Giants OC, Bob Gibson, was fired the next day.  At the end of the season, head coach John McVay got the same.  

[Thundergod]

The most intriguing example was in December 1978 when the Eagles beat the Giants in the Meadowlands after Larry Csonka fumbled on a running play and Herman Edwards scooped up the ball and took it in for the winning TD.  All the Giants had to do was fall on the ball.  The Giants OC, Bob Gibson, was fired the next day.  At the end of the season, head coach John McVay got the same.  

Um, it wasn't Larry Csonka that fumbled the ball, it was some dude named Joe Pisarcik that fumbled in '77. But that's besides the point.  I'm sure another reason the coach got fired was because the Giants went 5-9 the year before, to add to their 6-10 record of '77.

Cowher has had 3 losing seasons as head coach of the Steelers, firing a guy over what happens in a playoff game is just inane.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Um, it wasn't Larry Csonka that fumbled the ball, it was some dude named Joe Pisarcik that fumbled in '77. But that's besides the point.  I'm sure another reason the coach got fired was because the Giants went 5-9 the year before, to add to their 6-10 record of '77.

Cowher has had 3 losing seasons as head coach of the Steelers, firing a guy over what happens in a playoff game is just inane.

Two things that I disagree on:

1.  It was 1978, not '77, and Joe Pisarcik was the QB who lateralled the ball to Csonka.  The ball bounced off Csonka's hip and onto the ground where Herman Edwards scooped it up.  Both guys were responsible, but the play was botched nonetheless.  

2.  Let me reiterate what I said in another thread.  It's not that you lose in playoff games, it's the WAY THAT YOU LOSE.  He just simply got outplayed all those other times.  This time around, he had the game in the bag, and like the Giants in '78, all he had to do was fall on the ball three times.  If he hadn't run out the clock, Indy would've had the ball on their 2 with seconds to play and no timeouts.  Losing a game you have in the bag because your stupid play calling results in a botched play is inexcusable.  Especially in the playoffs.  

[Thundergod]

Two things that I disagree on:

1.  It was 1978, not '77, and Joe Pisarcik was the QB who lateralled the ball to Csonka.  The ball bounced off Csonka's hip and onto the ground where Herman Edwards scooped it up.  Both guys were responsible, but the play was botched nonetheless.

My bad. You're right.    

And to resond to your other point, I understand what you mean and have seen that happen, it's just personally I wouldn't fire someone for that reason.  I remember when the Oilers blew that famous playoff game against the Bills, Houston fired coaches left and right...  and now we call the Oilers the Titans.  

[YoFuggedaboutit]

My bad. You're right.    

And to resond to your other point, I understand what you mean and have seen that happen, it's just personally I wouldn't fire someone for that reason.

I would.  Again, mistakes like that are inexcusable.  

I remember when the Oilers blew that famous playoff game against the Bills,  the Houston fired coaches left and right...  and now we call the Oilers the Titans.  

I think the defensive coordinator, the D-Line coach and the DB coach were the ones who got canned within a week of that debacle.  And that was inexcusable as well.  When you have a 35-3 halftime lead, all you need 30 minutes of sound, fundamental football on defense to close it out.  Houston obviously let up, by going to the "prevent" defense, which we all know prevents you from winning games.  

[jtex316]

How long does a Tony Dungy last in the NFL?

In the National Football League, YOU MUST WIN.  Period.  End of Sentence.  You can only come up short so many times.  It doesn't matter if you start every year 13-0, you MUST WIN (didn't I say this?)

For example, Brian Billick.  He's still riding his 2000 Super Bowl win.  In fact, the winners of the last TEN years are still with their teams, and the year before that, Mike Holmgren, is still alive in this years' post-season.

If Tony Dungy doesn't win either a AFC Title or the Superbowl by 2008, he will not be the Colts head coach any more.  

[jtex316]

I'm sorry the only exception to the last 10 year coaches thing is Dick Vermeil, who retired after he won the Super Bowl, or who knows he could have been still there, too.

[Spider-Dan]

In fact, the winners of the last TEN years are still with their teams, and the year before that, Mike Holmgren, is still alive in this years' post-season.

Since you already started nitpicking this statement, let me add a little more.   The head coaches of the last 10 Super Bowl winners are:

Belichick
Belichick
Gruden
Belichick
Billick
Vermeil
Shanahan
Shanahan
Holmgren
Switzer

Of those 7 coaches, 3 of them are not employed by the same team that they won the SB with, and I daresay all three were essentially forced out of a job; Switzer was fired, and Vermeil/Holmgren resigned under not-so-pleasant circumstances (although as you stated, Vermeil may not have been in such a situation had he stayed with STL).

[CF DolFan]

Anyone who coaches his team to that many playoff appearances does not suck regardless of how many other factors you add in.  There is no shame in losing the championship game or even second rounders. Losing to a good team in no way equals sucking!

Not making the playoffs when you have a top 5 defense and the leagues leading rusher means you suck as a coach!

[jtex316]

Ok Spider-Dan, the last NINE years.  

But you get my point.  Coaches that WIN keep their jobs for a lot longer and are much more revered then coaches who do NOT.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Nice avatar Jtex.  I wonder if that'll bring Black Prowler and TenaciousD out of hiding.  

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Not making the playoffs when you have a top 5 defense and the leagues leading rusher means you suck as a coach!

Good one CF.  I'd bet the house on who you're referring to.  Here's a few quotes from him


"Uhhhhh sure Ricky, we could really use you!!"

"Jay had a great practice and he ties his shoelaces very well, so he'll start next week"

"After adding up all the grade-outs, Eddie Moore was the best player on the board"

[JVides]

Jtex, honestly...

The guy has turned his roster over, what...four times in the past 12 years and he is still consistently a winning coach.  1 in 32 teams win the big one.  It's not one great coach and 31 losers.  The Steelers have avoided 4-12, 5-11 type seasons under his stewardship, even though the salary cap allegedly guarantees that you only have 4 or 5 years of success before the cap and free agent defections will eat you up.

[jtex316]

This still, IMO, doesn't prove anything about why his teams just flop in the post-season - until now.