Speaking of bad top picks

[Dphins4me]

I thought I would pull JVides's post from another thread to make my point.  Here goes:

I agree 100%.  Now let's add a couple more.

1999-  Jimmy selects JJ Johnson after trading down.  Could've had Al Wilson

  Sure, he could have had Wilson.  Though where would he be playing in Miami?

Its not like the MLB is being manned by some no name linebacker.

2001-  Wanny selects Jamar Fletcher.  Could've had Drew Brees or Reggie Wayne. 

   Sure could have had Brees also.  I wonder what team he would be playing for now had Miami drafted him? 

Do you think Miami fans would have been quite while we waited 3 years for him to develop?  Don't think so.  They did not give AJ a year.

As for Wayne.  Another No. 2 Wr would have been nice, but Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they drafted Wayne in Rd. 1 & Chambers can fill the No. 1 slot in a offense.  Wayne cannot.

Again, we can only speculate on how good the Dolphins would've been with all the "could've hads", but the fact is this:  With that type of track record, the Dolphins are extremely lucky they still had a winning team for a while.  Not a SINGLE ONE of those players drafted is currently on the Dolphins roster.  This pretty much proves that JJ was simply mediocre when drafting for the Dolphins.  He had just as many hits as misses.  And Wanny/Spielman...... let's not go there. 

Yeap, JJ was very average.  He was average in Dallas also, just that he hit on a couple of picks & everyone forgets about his many misses.

[JVides]

Too bad players aren't drafted after their careers so we all could have this type of hindsight.

You mock, but how exactly do you grade a draft if not with hindsight?  It's the only way to gauge a draft, man.  Every one of these players MUST have been highly rated to be a first round choice.  Nobody drafts  slow, weak players in the first round because they're really good locker room influences or really crack the coaching staff up, or because they perform really cool magic tricks when they visit the sick kids at hospitals.  The point is still valid: the Miami Dolphins drafted incredibly poorly in the mid 80s and pretty much all of the 90s.  Say what you will about one good season here or there, or a guy being traded for someone decent.  A first round pick is what your team builds around; a cornerstone.  A first round pick is supposed to give you at the very least 5 years of good if not excellent play.

Bobby Humphries, a budding super star for Denver, is evidence of that.  

Bobby Humphrey was no super star in Denver; he would've never been traded if he were.  He had two 1,000 yard seasons in his first 2 years, yes, but that's hardly what I'd call "super".  If he'd hit 1500 yards in Dan Reeves' run-heavy system, then maybe he'd have been headed for superstar level.   As Phishfan said, Humphrey's bullet wound and cocaine habit killed his career, not Shula's system, or Marino's audibles.

[JVides]

As for Wayne.  Another No. 2 Wr would have been nice, but Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they drafted Wayne in Rd. 1 & Chambers can fill the No. 1 slot in a offense.  Wayne cannot.

How do you know Wayne cannot be a # 1 receiver?  Peyton Manning has one of the best wide receivers in the league in Marvin Harrison; a true Hall of Fame guy.  Being a great # 1 does not mean you have to be a first ballot HOF guy.  Wayne has all the tools to be an excellent # 1 receiver.  He's pretty fast, has decent size, runs precise routes, goes down the middle of the field, and is extremely confident.

I was jumping up and down screaming "DRAFT WAYNE!!" on that day.  I remember watching as Peyton Manning (he was there being interviewed by ESPN) pumped his fist and nodded when the Colts picked Wayne.  Wayne and Chambers would have been a hell of a WR duo, in my opinion.

[Dphins4me]

People forget why we didn't draft Moss. 

People forget Miami never had the chance to draft Moss.

JJ traded down before the draft ever started.  Had JJ known for that Moss would have falled to Miami then Moss would have been in Miami.  I only seen one mock suggesting Moss would fall & that was from the Sporting News.  Everyone else had him going top ten.

Nobody doubted his talent, but he was a headcase.  He had serious character issues coming into the draft. 

He had played two years at Marshall without trouble, so I wonder why people had such concern about him.
     

Of all teams, you should understand why the Dolphins (who'd had terrible first round luck) would want to pass on a receiver for a guy who was less risky.  ...and we weren't the only ones.

   Again Miami never passed on Moss.  They traded out of the 19 spot several hours before the drafted even started.  So Miami never passed on Moss.

The only draft pick I really look back on and say WTF was Jamar Fletcher...not because he didn't turn out well, but because we needed a QB so bad -- Brees was there, and to draft a cornerback seemed downright moronic.  We already had Madison and Surtain...it seemed like you could've pushed that need for a fifth corner down a bit.

   Miami was a  11 win team in '00.  Wanny thought Miami was close & since you have forgotten.  Miami's weak spot in '00 was 3rd CB.  So the drafting of a CB was not moronic.  The player they picked was.  Smoot was far better than Jamar.

As for Brees.    Yes, Miami needed a QB, but you have to look at it from Wanny point of view.  They won 11 games with Fiedler & Wanny thought Miami was close to being able to make a SB, so why would you draft a QB who most likely would not help you in '01 & as it turned out did not turn into a decent QB till '04.

I understand Wanny's thinking.  I just did not like the player picked.

[Dphins4me]

To me, it's not about passing on Moss.  It's about JJ trading down before he knew who was going to be on the board and then trying to convince us it was OK because Larry Shannon was better than Moss anyway! 

  Yea, JJ was trying hard to cover his arse afterwards.

Vonnie Holliday was the one chosen at our pick by the way.  We traded with Green Bay not Minnesota.  The next pick was Moss, so we could have had him if we wanted him.  Instead, we got video gamer John Avery who is smaller than Vonnie Holliday's thigh.

  Actually Terry Fair went after Holliday.  Moss then went.

JJ let the media convince him he really was a draft guru so he thought he would be clever and make a trade before the draft even started.  Nice move JJ. 

  Yeap, JJ feel in love with that tag. 

People also forget that JJ traded that 2nd he got from GB to Det. for a 3rd, 5th & 6th.

Brad Johnson, Scott Shaw & John Dutton. 

[Dphins4me]

The same thing was said about Warren Sapp, when he fell to the Buccaneers.  People worry about a guy because he tested positive for marijuana and compare him to a real headcase, like Lawrence Phillips.  I do understand why Johnson passed on Moss, but I never agreed with it, which is why I mentioned it.  Much like The_Phinatic, I was irked that Johnson traded with Green Bay before the draft even started, and then tried to say Larry Shannon would be better, and that John Avery was like "Emmitt Smith, only faster."

Since you know JJ traded down before the draft & Moss was not expected to fall then how can you say JJ passed on him?  Pass means JJ actually had the chance to draft him & choose not too.

No matter what JJ ever said, he would have NEVER passed on Moss.

[Dphins4me]

Sammie Smith was the big back that Shula wanted to complement Marino.  Who new he'd be a flake?  Was there any history of that at FSU?  It happens - Lawrence Phillips comes to mind..

I never considered Smith a flake in his playing days.  The two goaline fumbles did him in as a Dolphin.  Fans hated him after them.   I think they destroyed any hope for him to make it as an NFL back.

Never followed him after the trade to Denver, but he failed there for whatever reasons.

[Dphins4me]

How do you know Wayne cannot be a # 1 receiver?

Believe him to be too slow for a No. 1 & will stumble if having to face a teams No. 1 corner.  He is a solid No. 2 man though IMO.

Peyton Manning has one of the best wide receivers in the league in Marvin Harrison; a true Hall of Fame guy.  Being a great # 1 does not mean you have to be a first ballot HOF guy.  Wayne has all the tools to be an excellent # 1 receiver.  He's pretty fast, has decent size, runs precise routes, goes down the middle of the field, and is extremely confident.

Of course. No QB is going to be upset when the team brings in another weapon.

I was jumping up and down screaming "DRAFT WAYNE!!" on that day.  I remember watching as Peyton Manning (he was there being interviewed by ESPN) pumped his fist and nodded when the Colts picked Wayne.

  I wanted Chambers

Wayne and Chambers would have been a hell of a WR duo, in my opinion.

Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they taken Wayne in Rd. 1.

[run_to_win]

That does not explain 1992.  Here's a 1200 yard back who comes to Miami and gets relegated to a 3rd down pass catcher in favor of Mark Higgs.  WTF?

1989 den |  16 |   294   1151    3.9    7 |    22    156   7.1    1 |
1990 den |  15 |   288   1202    4.2    7 |    24    152   6.3    0 |
1991 den |   04 |    11     33    3.0    0 |     0      0   0.0    0 |
1992 mia |  16 |   102    471    4.6    1 |    54    507   9.4    1 |

After the 1989 and '90 seasons Bobby Humphrey was a league super star who was thought to be on his way to the Hall of Fame.  Miami made him a pass catcher?

[JVides]

Since you know JJ traded down before the draft & Moss was not expected to fall then how can you say JJ passed on him?  Pass means JJ actually had the chance to draft him & choose not too.

The team originally held a pick that would have netted Moss.  The team traded the pick, assuming he would not be available.  Teams generally DO NOT trade picks before the teams are "on the clock", because a) a player they like may fall to them or b) a player some other team desperately wants might still be available at Miami's spot, increasing the amount received in return for the pick.  The trade of the pick was aberrant behavior, almost like JJ didn't even want to deal with the temptation of Moss being available.  So, yes, JJ PASSED on Moss even before the draft began.

Believe him to be too slow for a No. 1 & will stumble if having to face a teams No. 1 corner.  He is a solid No. 2 man though IMO

He's a 4.5 guy.  He may not be blazing fast, but he's faster than one Jerry Rice who did quite well with "pedestrian" 4.6 speed.

Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they taken Wayne in Rd. 1.

Were you at some team meeting I didn't attend?  Is this fact or conjecture?

[JVides]

That does not explain 1992.  Here's a 1200 yard back who comes to Miami and gets relegated to a 3rd down pass catcher in favor of Mark Higgs.  WTF?

1989 den |  16 |   294   1151    3.9    7 |    22    156   7.1    1 |
1990 den |  15 |   288   1202    4.2    7 |    24    152   6.3    0 |
1991 den |   04 |    11     33    3.0    0 |     0      0   0.0    0 |
1992 mia |  16 |   102    471    4.6    1 |    54    507   9.4    1 |

After the 1989 and '90 seasons Bobby Humphrey was a league super star who was thought to be on his way to the Hall of Fame.  Miami made him a pass catcher?

Oh, so now Miami ruined a Hall of Fame back, eh?  I almost spit up my coffee, man!
Let's get Edgerrin James into Canton RIGHT NOW before he goes to a team that ruins his chances, too!  Have you considered that perhaps 89 and 90 were the aberrations?  What happened in 1991?  Was he injured?  Suspended?  Did he blow up his knee?  Was he never the same afterwards?  Was he damaged goods?  Was his cocaine habit so out of control that he couldn't function? 

[Phishfan]

Bobby Humphrey held out almost an entire year in a contract dispute. Denver thought so highly of him they traded him for Sammy Smith who wasn't even starting for the Dolphins at the time. Mark Higgs was already the starter before Smith left.

Both guys played one season after the trade and then faded into obscurity. Last I heard Smith was in jail and Humphrey is a coach in the AFL2.

[Dphins4me]

The team originally held a pick that would have netted Moss.  The team traded the pick, assuming he would not be available. .

Since there was only one person who actually thought Moss would fall to Miami.   I think prior to the draft that was a safe assumption, since most thought he would go top 10.

Teams generally DO NOT trade picks before the teams are "on the clock", because a) a player they like may fall to them or b) a player some other team desperately wants might still be available at Miami's spot, increasing the amount received in return for the pick. .

  Yes, teams generally do not trade down & that is where you can blame JJ for jumping the gun, however he had no reason to expect Moss to fall there & GB was offering up a 2nd for the pick & I actually think JJ had Avery targeted & knew he could land him later in the Rd. 

  The trade of the pick was aberrant behavior, almost like JJ didn't even want to deal with the temptation of Moss being available. .

  JJ would have been all over Moss like flies on cow dung.   Not one doubt JJ kicked himself for making that trade.

 Please do not tell me that you believe JJ was afraid of the temptation of Moss.  A man who drafted Collins & signed Phillips, brought in Holmes & many other questionable players in his time with the Boys & Phins.  Moss would have been just another player.

So, yes, JJ PASSED on Moss even before the draft began.

  As I like to say.  Calling a dog a cat does not make it a cat, its still a dog..  You can be correct in saying JJ did not have the foresight to believe he might have the chance at Moss or you can say JJ fell in love with his tag of draft guru & traded down for the sake of making a trade, but saying JJ passed on Moss when he never had the chance to draft him is very inaccurate.

He's a 4.5 guy.  He may not be blazing fast, but he's faster than one Jerry Rice who did quite well with "pedestrian" 4.6 speed.

Oh yea, lets compare one of the greatest WR to Wayne simply based on his speed.

There is track speed & football speed.  I'll leave it at that.  I might be wrong on Wayne but I doubt it.

Were you at some team meeting I didn't attend?  Is this fact or conjecture?

Its not fact or conjecture.   It is common sense.

 Did you not know whom was doing the drafting for Miami?  A man who when in dire need of WR help, drafted a 5th Rd LB for special teams help in Rd. 2.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know Wanny would not draft Wr. in Rd. 1 & 2.  I can probably come close to say maybe one team in NFL history of the draft has ever done that.

[JVides]

Since there was only one person who actually thought Moss would fall to Miami.   I think prior to the draft that was a safe assumption, since most thought he would go top 10

One person?  No.  This sort of thing happens almost every few years.  Off the top of my head, I can think of Warren Sapp (form maybe # 1 overall to # 12), Aaron Rodgers to Green Bay, the aforemantioned Moss, Marino, even.  That's 4 in 23 years, no research involved.  You think I coult turn up another 5 or 6?  I'm sure I could.  Besides, we're arguing semantics here.  I say he passed on Moss by giving himself no shot at the guy (indirectly, as it were).

Please do not tell me that you believe JJ was afraid of the temptation of Moss.

I believe JJ thought Moss to be overrated.  Dan LeBatard speaks of this all the time on his show, in his colums, in his sleep...  I believe JJ did not want to have to sit there with Moss on the board and then not pick him.  I believe Dolfans would've been out of control crazy, screaming that he'd done this to spite Marino by leaving him with a sub-par receiving crew for yet another season.

Oh yea, lets compare one of the greatest WR to Wayne simply based on his speed.

My response was made strictly to refute your claim that Wayne is too slow to be a true # 1.  As I'd stated before:  he does everything required of a # 1:  runs good routes, goes through the middle of the field.  I understand that you may think him to be another Peerless Price, and that's your prerogative.  I, however, will not discount Wayne as a possible # 1 until he fails to be one.

Did you not know whom was doing the drafting for Miami?  A man who when in dire need of WR help, drafted a 5th Rd LB for special teams help in Rd. 2.

You are likely right, but realize:  this thread was about what the 'Phins screwed up in their drafting, not a profile on their drafting techniques.  A team in need of 2 wide receivers could logically be expected to draft 2 wide receivers.  I, too, wanted Chambers, but wanted Wayne as well.  I was tired of the "talent" (geriatric Fryar, Ingram, injured McDuffie, Lamar Thomas, Charles Jordan) Marino had been forced to throw to after Clayton and Duper were let go.

[Dphins4me]

One person?  No.  This sort of thing happens almost every few years.  Off the top of my head, I can think of Warren Sapp (form maybe # 1 overall to # 12), Aaron Rodgers to Green Bay, the aforemantioned Moss, Marino, even.  That's 4 in 23 years, no research involved.  You think I coult turn up another 5 or 6?  I'm sure I could. 

  Not sure what other players falling in other drafts have to do with  draft  people expecting Moss to fall.  Sure it happens from time to time, but that does not mean people expected Moss to fall.

The only person who actually predicted it was Dan Pompie ( However, his name is spelled)

Besides, we're arguing semantics here.I say he passed on Moss by giving himself no shot at the guy (indirectly, as it were).

  While yes this is semantics.  Pass implies being there & deciding not too take him.  JJ never decided not to take him.
 

I believe JJ thought Moss to be overrated.  Dan LeBatard speaks of this all the time on his show, in his colums, in his sleep.

   If you believe that, then I cannot prove differently since neither of us really know. But JJ track record says otherwise.

As for LeBatard.  He is a dumbarse in the largest sense of the word.

...  I believe JJ did not want to have to sit there with Moss on the board and then not pick him..

   Who would he have taken Vonnie Holliday?  That was the only player worthy of that pick.   JJ said several times, you gamble on greatness.  At 19 Moss would have been a worthy gamble.

I believe Dolfans would've been out of control crazy, screaming that he'd done this to spite Marino by leaving him with a sub-par receiving crew for yet another season.

Those fans would have been stupid.  JJ drafted one of the top Wr in Rd. 1 the year before.  People who believe JJ was out to destroy Marino are not very smart.  JJ wanted to win, not destroy Marino.

If JJ wanted to do that then he would have traded Marino for a bag of peanuts when he arrived in Miami.

My response was made strictly to refute your claim that Wayne is too slow to be a true # 1.  As I'd stated before:  he does everything required of a # 1:  runs good routes, goes through the middle of the field.  I understand that you may think him to be another Peerless Price, and that's your prerogative.  I, however, will not discount Wayne as a possible # 1 until he fails to be one.

      Wayne is football slow for a No. 1    Some players play faster than they run on a track in shorts.

Some players lose a step or two once the pads go on & some do not.  I do not think Rice did & I believe Wayne too.   

 I do not see that in Wayne.  I think he is slow & has been making a living facing lesser corners in the league because of Harrison.

I do not see Wayne learning to work harder to get open.  He has been in the league for 5 years going up against No. 2 or 3 CBs.  He is not us to facing No. 1 corners.  I think he will fail.  Not in the sense of Peerless, but one where the teams needs more production from the No. 1 slot.

You are likely right, but realize:  this thread was about what the 'Phins screwed up in their drafting, not a profile on their drafting techniques.  A team in need of 2 wide receivers could logically be expected to draft 2 wide receivers.  I, too, wanted Chambers, but wanted Wayne as well.  I was tired of the "talent" (geriatric Fryar, Ingram, injured McDuffie, Lamar Thomas, Charles Jordan) Marino had been forced to throw to after Clayton and Duper were let go

I do not know how easy it would be but I doubt more than a few teams have selected two WR in both Rd. 1 & 2.

Also do not forget that Miami has signed McKnight in the off-season to man one of the starting Wr. Spots.  We know he sucked now, but then there was hope.